Good amount of spray, will not start... SOLVED!!

[layhew]

Moderator note: Title changed to reflect issue.
Was "Good amount of spray, Plugs stay dry"


Hey, I've recently had my 84 1.9l engine rebuilt by someone is Sydney. I got it home put it all together and boom, she stared at the turn of a key. I had her running for a few days before driving her into town for a wheel alignment, everything worked fine. The next day i spotted a leaking pipe so i dropped it and then bled the system. Again all fine. After bleeding i went to give it a few revs and it instantly died. I'm assuming i ran out of fuel because when turned to on the fuel needle didn't budge.

NOW..i've put fuel into it went to turn the key and no go. It cranks but it doesn't kick over. Ive looked and we have a good amount of spark. We also have fuel, i removed the injectors and could see a good amount of spray. The earths in the back that connect to the block have been replaced and cleaned so i cant for the life of me think of a reason for it not to start? Am i missing an earth? Could the valves not be opening (but the tappets go through their motions)?? We've had two back fires when rotating dizzy slightly but when removed the spark plugs don't seem to be getting wet.

I'm pulling my hair out on this one..

[djkeev]

Spraying fuel while cranking or with the key in the run position?

Dave
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Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[layhew]

[9.5isCanadian]

Check timing? The distributor would be another culprit.
For example, the it is 180 out, it’ll be “firing” on the exhaust stroke.
Did you take it out between your startup attempts.

Just spit ball’n here.
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9 1/2 - missing a few pieces.

1987 Getaway Hightop
1980 Sunroof Vanagon
2018 BMW R Nine T
2012 Golf tdi

[Butcher]

It ran, you fixed a leak, now it does not. It has spark, fuel, and most likely compression.

Check the fuel pressure. Maybe the pressure is low enough so there is spray, but not high enough to spray the proper amount. Just because you have spark outside the combustion chamber, does not mean there is enough of that power to jump a plug gap in the combustion chamber. It is a bit harder to jump in that environment.

If it did run before, I would not think the ignition timing or cam timing to have jumped but of course checking will confirm what you got.

One more thing, with all that checking and repairing at the engine, make certain you did not knock a hose off causing a large leak in the intake system.

[dhaavers]

The only time I had backfiring & (very) rough starting, I found the center
dizzy connector completely burnt inside the cap. Check everything...



- Dave
_________________
86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS>

[layhew]

It's just been a complete rebuild and when picked up made sure it was timed correctly, so although im going to check the timing, im going to remove that from being a suspect for the time being. i have removed the dizzy after a day of poking around the engine bay, but it went back in with no drama and with correct positioning.

Im going to aim for the fuel system, we have quite a lot of pressure at the 'T', the injectors seem to be spraying well enough (recently flushed out). Maybe while bleeding with the front end up, the junk in the bottom of the fuel tank clogged the fuel filter/pump limiting flow.

Going to start from the basics and check everything like dhaavers said.

Also is there a way i could test to see if the spark is strong enough? (All electronics are new, withing 5000km)

If problem still hides, anyone after an 84 vanagon?? i swear it drives like an angel

[crazyvwvanman]

There is a simple fuel delivery test described in the manuals that should answer your fuel system doubts without having to replace any parts first. You need a fuel pressure gauge, a 1 quart container, and a way to time 30 seconds. Follow the procedure EXACTLY.

Mark

[layhew]

I've checked the fuel pressure and it's reading at just over 30 psi at crank so I am rule out the fuel pressure regulator. I've checked for air leaks and none were found. The earths in the engine compartment are all fine. Coil is reading proper voltage output, air flow meters new and works. We get spark outside of the chamber so I'm going to assume that the dizzy works fine (although I will check voltage later). Timing has been checked and is correct.

Is there an earth towards the front of the car that would cause the car to create 'less' to no spark?

[DanHoug]

make this harness and follow the directions. it will help narrow down your issue.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=349429
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com

[layhew]

I'll rig that contraption up this weekend and give it a whirl. It looks pure genius!

I was fiddling around with the fuse's under the front passenger side of the car. Is there something from that bunch of wires that communicates with the ecu?

I'm at a complete lost. My plugs are still dry, we have pressure and spray so they should be getting wet right...right?

[DanHoug]

if the plugs are brand new with white porcelin it is very difficult to tell if they are wet with fuel. much easier with blackened, used plugs.

do you smell raw gas at the tail pipe?

if your injectors are truly squirting while cranking, concentrate on verifying spark. but since you're stumped, go back and verify everything - assume none of your previous assumptions were correct.

- visually confirm squirt by pulling each injector rail pair and crank. if nothing, then:

- verify 12v pulse in all 4 injector electrical connectors with a noid light (BOSCH2 at a FLAPS)

- verify spark by putting any old spare plug on the lead and cranking, don't have to remove plugs.

- if spark and fuel are present, verify timing, spark plug wire order.

- if all correct, check compression.

you'll find it. view a true no-start condition as a puzzle where every piece must be present. it's actually much nicer to deal with than an intermittent.
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com

[djkeev]

If your injectors are spraying, it is inconceivable that your plugs are dry.

Compression, fuel, spark......
Delivered at the right time in the right quanties, the motor will start.

You have one that doesn't exist or it is being delivered a most horribly incorrect time.

Dave

Go back, check your basics, you've made a mistake or you've knocked something out of whack.
Assume nothing!
Firing order, spark, fuel delivery, timing, etc. check them all.
Verify that All components plugged in properly.

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[Wildthings]

Spraying injectors and no spark will also mean a stinky exhaust pipe.

[Mellow Yellow 74]

Check the engine bay around where you fixed the leaking coolant pipe to make you haven’t knocked a hose or something off. I somehow managed to bump the intake duct from the AFM off once and the engine wouldn’t run because of a big unmetered air leak.
_________________
1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon)

[MarkWard]

[layhew]

Fiddling is all i seem to be doing with this van...in laymans terms. I was checking some fuses due to my blinkers not working and i cleaned some earths.

Unfortunately the electrical shop didn't have any diodes in stock, so the wire system will have to wait until i get my hands on some.

I've done most electrical checks and all seems fine, except when testing the hall sensor (by turning key to on and then raising the dizzy and rotating the rotor) we noticed that sparks were coming from the coil. We immediately stopped, removed and cleaned the connectors and replaced with new crimps. It was still shooting fireworks tho. Until we noticed a slight crack in the the coil where the plug lead connects. I've ordered another one and will update when arrived.

Ive also replaced spark plugs with NGK BP6ES, these seem to be a little better then the Bosch ones that came with the new engine. (a new wiring harness and doubling my electrical equipment is next on the list)

I was also tested the pins in the ecu being worried that because it sat while the engine got built some wires died out. Except i was missing some pins or the pins in mine didn't match the pins numbered in the Bentley. I also only got a reading of 6V at pin 1-13 (Wire from starter motor) this is 2V's less then the Bentley suggests. Coils fault?

We are getting spark outside the chamber and the plugs are getting wet and i am also certain that there is no air leaks.

So while I'm waiting on a coil I will try to find diodes to rig up the contraption

Thanks everyone for your responses!

[layhew]

And yes its a right hand drive

[Mellow Yellow 74]

What was the solution last time?

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8379339&highlight=#8379339
_________________
1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon)

[Wildthings]

Maybe you didn't have the tang on the bottom of the distributor shaft aligned with the slot in the dizzy drive and your timing is now way off?