transaxle magnet shard analysis: am I tent camping tonight?

[macjack]

Vanagonuts,
I went for a little off roading yesterday to get to a nice spot in the Indian Peaks of Colorado.

This was the only flat spot on the trail. It was steep, but nothing very extreme, certainly not nearly as rough as some of the jeep roads I've done in Moab, but the only other vehicles back there were four-wheeler-polaris things and jeeps. But I didn't think much of it until I got home and put it in first to pull into my parking spot and heard a whine. The whine/whirring sound is being transmitted through the shifter knob (manual synchro trans), and it changes if I wiggle the shifter. I heard the whine in reverse, first and second. It is present with clutch in and out (which I don't understand). I don't hear it in any other gear, under heavy load, or anything else. I drove it to my FLAPS this morning, and carefully listening didn't hear anything once out of first.
I drained the transaxle fluid this morning and found this:

The oil smelled burnt, as I always remember it smelling, but it was a decent brown. Spreading out the stuff on the magnet I found this:

That's inches on the ruler, BTW.

We were planning to do a family camp at Rocky Mountain National Park tonight in the van, but I don't want to do anything stupid with expensive parts inside. We could take a tent and pack up the other car, but everyone would of course prefer the van, if it is good to go.

Anybody tell if these shards are ok? The longer ones are curved and thin. no big chunks.

I haven't filled it back up yet, so I can't speak to whether the sounds in first and reverse are still there.
Thanks in advance.
_________________
87 TDI Syncro Westy
81 Westy (sold)
80 Rabbit Wolfsburg (rolled)
Bike as primary transportation

[SSWesty]

Here is a thread with what a few of use have found to be "normal" and not so normal. Your plug doesn't look crazy however the whine you hear may not be represented yet on the plug.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=596332

[gears]

The additional analysis you've done suggests a failing pinion bearing, since those long shards are probably from the R&P. In a Syncro, this much forward pinion movement also leads to a fried Low idler gear :^ (

Fortunately, you've got Mr GAS in your neck of the woods :^ )
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com

[Sodo]

[macjack]

So with a fresh fill of garden variety GL-5, It still has the whirring sound. It actually goes away with the clutch in, but may be there if I rev it with the clutch in. Hard to hear everything perfectly.
This drain is from about 40k miles. The long shards are what worry me, combined with the sounds.
The camping is about 40 miles away, up a winding highway at 40 mph. I really don't want to mess up more than I have already, but I don't know how fast that happens?
hmmm.
Thanks for all the replies already.
Any other ideas about how dire this is?
_________________
87 TDI Syncro Westy
81 Westy (sold)
80 Rabbit Wolfsburg (rolled)
Bike as primary transportation

[skills@eurocarsplus]

[Sodo]

[macjack]

Thanks Sodo and skills.
Years ago I drove on a 600 mile road trip in the van where at the start I began to hear some vibrations but it was such a pain to turn around, unload the van, tell my friends we would be a day late, yada yada. On the way home, it ended up causing a cracked bell housing, tranny pull, etc. Huge pain. So I've learned that lesson the hard way.
I have gotten several good trip out of the van recently, and we do have a modern suv that we can drive in and we have a family tent, so can't get too attached to the Westy life in a short sighted way.
I needed to make a decision to pack one vehicle or another, and have already unloaded the gear from the van.
I'll test it out in milder environs before feeling good about a trip prior to rebuild..
and I'll start saving my pennies.
_________________
87 TDI Syncro Westy
81 Westy (sold)
80 Rabbit Wolfsburg (rolled)
Bike as primary transportation

[16CVs]

How many miles on that Transmission since a rebuild or overall. Now is a good time to rebuild it.
It’ll be $4k now or $6k when it explodes. Once rebuilt I advocate changing the fluid every 10 - 15K miles. Especially if you have a non stock engine or a lot of extra weight.
Both of my Syncro boxes have been done within 10k miles and my spare box is out getting a new mainshaft and gear set installed. This will go in my truck once done and then that one will get the same treAtment and go into my MULTIVAN.
These Transmissions are the weak point of these vans and need Extra love to keep them going.
Stop driving it and send it to the closest competent builder and have it fixed.

Stacy
_________________
1987 Syncro Westfalia Triple knob (bastard)
1989 Syncro Tristar Triple knob "Swedish"
2013 Jetta Hybrid a true "Zwitter"
Samba member # 14980
Call anytime number 650 722 4914 .
Keep Your van running and upkept tastefully for the love of the hobby.
Don't let your van end up in an "abortions" thread.

[16CVs]

Oh, I just noticed your vehicle line up. Just another odd coincidence of a TDi powered Syncro with an early Transmission failure.
A little more than a chance happening to me. Stop driving Now and get it fixed.
Stacy
_________________
1987 Syncro Westfalia Triple knob (bastard)
1989 Syncro Tristar Triple knob "Swedish"
2013 Jetta Hybrid a true "Zwitter"
Samba member # 14980
Call anytime number 650 722 4914 .
Keep Your van running and upkept tastefully for the love of the hobby.
Don't let your van end up in an "abortions" thread.

[gears]

No question that TDi is harder on transaxles, and 40K is far too long an interval for oil change.
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com

[macjack]

Agreed that 40k is too long for the fluid change. It might be less mileage than that, but it has been at least 30k.
This is the freshly rebuilt transaxle that I got from German Transaxle in 2005 when I put this conversion in. Aside from a small local rebuild of the reverse gear, which was likely more of a misaligned shifter issue, this transaxle build is on about 100k miles. While early for many cars, I wouldn't consider this terribly early for a Vanagon, especially given the TDI power.
I have felt for a while that I am beyond what I would expect, without a tranny cooler, and consider this something of a scheduled maintenance item by this point.
An expensive scheduled maintenance, but still, I was listening for it.
We slept in a tent last night and enjoyed it. It has been a while! The van sits for now, while I make a plan and save some pennies.
Thanks for all the input.
_________________
87 TDI Syncro Westy
81 Westy (sold)
80 Rabbit Wolfsburg (rolled)
Bike as primary transportation

[gears]

[Sodo]

Yes it is! That must have been a good trans build. Any rebuilt trans is kind of 'luck-of-the-draw' with regards to the (many) used parts that go back in.

Back in ‘05 the incoming transaxles had better parts, and the used parts stash offered better quality to choose from. Now all the trans are on the 2nd or 3rd round (and more), and parts have to be approaching their limit. Especially since so many run them in their own puke towards the end.

I often see members advising “don’t worry, run it ‘til it makes noise then rebuild”. That’s what I did back in my trans-eating days. But its not wise advice. Wise is to rebuild it before destroying other valuable (or no longer available) parts. You guys out there who have good quiet trannies with 100% OEM parts should get yours rebuilt BEFORE it goes bad. If it's got 150k and still quiet, get it rebuilt NOW. You get to use YOUR GOOD PARTS rather than some other 350k mi used part from the pile. But make sure you work with a rebuilder who knows you want your OWN primo parts, not an "exchange".

But macjack I have to wonder how long that (really well-built) trans would have lasted with 20k, 15k, —->10k changes, or at least monitoring the drain magnet every 10k.
Which could be a “new” thing for those DIY owners who go under the bus.

That’s probably what needs to happen from here on out in our antiques program. If 10k (or 20 or 30) maintenance was in the Bentley there would be a lot of quiet transaxles out there. Too bad it took 30 years to realize this. Actually we all knew this, right?

And certainly those with larger conversion engines a better maintenance plan needs to be added.
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[Waldi]

"Actually we all knew this, right? "
No.
How would oil save parts from breaking ?
You change the oil every 10k, if nothing breaks (usual parts), or due to your "need to hold on with the traffic", the bearings may last 10-20k ? longer. Than you ignore the incoming noice, and your pinion will break anyway. See above.
Oil cannot voodoo

[Abscate]

That magnet isn't close to being filled.

Drive it home, deal with it there.
_________________
.ssS!

[Sodo]

[Zeitgeist 13]

Has anyone thought about embedding magnets up in the gear cluster housing rather than waiting for chunks to migrate down to the R&P case?
_________________
Casey--

'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik?

[Pcforno]

If one is filtering and cooling, I’m not sure that 10k or 20k oil changes are necessary. I’ve experimented at 10k with the oil in mine and let it settle for a week and found zero magnetic particles...
The EP package theoretically shouldn’t degrade either as temps are kept quite low (mine never sees above 145)

[Sodo]