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Excessive Noise Coming Through Floor?
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Amskeptic
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:02 am    Post subject: Excessive Noise Coming Through Floor? Reply with quote

First, I have been incredibly fortunate to own two very low mileage VW buses in my life, and I have a photographic memory of VW buses straight off the showroom floor. As a child, I recorded the entire experience of a brand new Volkswagen from the smell of new vinyl and cosmoline wax and paint still burning off the new mufflers and those stiff vent windows and doors that shut solidly, and bumps taken with nary a rattle. I also remember hours of sitting or sleeping over the engine on various VW buses. The soundtrack is in here.

Both the 1977 NaranjaWesty bought at 41,836 miles on October 26, 2015, and the 1978 BobD bought at 36,900 miles on July 17, 2008, had the perfect new Volkswagen civility out on the road. The most remarkable aspect for me was that there was no change in engine sound between full-throttle and off-throttle. At speed with the windows open, I could not hear the engines. With the windows closed, I could hear the cooling fan and the nice normal reciprocating clatter only coming from the back.

I *assumed* that this was because all of those parts were held in tight new clearances and the factory balance has always been perfectly acceptable. I *assumed* that the increasing thumpy dududududududu under load in the BobD was because end play was opening up or that the new pressure plate Bob demanded had ruined the engine balance. I *assumed* that the increasing gear shifter rattle was because the engine was just vibrating more and more as parts loosened up. The BobD now at 111,130 miles, has a noticeable increase in noise on uphills and only sounds beautifully nice and quiet on the down hills.

NaranjaWesty, even with the solid lifters, is the very most quiet civilized VW I have driven, and up until June 10th, it had that remarkably absent change of sound between no-load and full-load.

But after SG Kent and I dropped the engine to change a pilot bearing on June 10th of this year, it suddenly became like the BobD, dudududududu under load, coming up through the floor under load. At first, I thought it was imbalance from removing and reinstalling the pressure plate and flywheel, or perhaps the engine/transaxle position had changed. Replaced the front shift bushing. Lubricated and freed the spring-loaded pin in the gear shift. Well, that helped the little annoying buzzing in the gearshift, but it did nothing to help the dudududududu coming through the floor.

Well, I done fixed it. Here at 91,114 miles, it is back to lovely quiet. If I manage to eradicate the same thumpiness in the BobD when I get back to Atlanta, it will be a whole new day. Read up:
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:51 am    Post subject: Re: Excessive Noise Coming Through Floor? Reply with quote

So let me guess. Your bus is a later model with the bell housing "ears". So instead of pulling the engine and transmission as a unit, you took the "ear" bolts out of the rear carrier and allowed the transmission to dip down so the engine would come out easier. This bent the rear shift rod.

Obviously it's completely SGKents fault since you were at his house at the time.

Maybe next time it would be best to disconnect the shift rod coupler as well?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:01 am    Post subject: Re: Excessive Noise Coming Through Floor? Reply with quote

I followed the link and read the post, particularly the part about the mission to visit every Bus. My Bus is in Atlanta, you can start there. 😄 (we met a couple of years ago at Thinking Man Tavern)

I don’t know if this is the source of my noise(s). But I’d like to hear this quiet Bus of yours.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:03 am    Post subject: Re: Excessive Noise Coming Through Floor? Reply with quote

Yes, it would be interesting to know if the engine/trans was removed as a unit as specified by VW or JUST the engine was removed.

I don't think the rod was damaged as the BobD has the same noise and it does not sound as if the engine was removed causing it.

I'm thinking mounts.

EDIT: Well, I guess I should have followed the link, as Colin is just as freakin annoying as some news articles on the WWW with their stupid "CLICK TO CONTINUE READING" or eBay with their stupid "CLICK TO SEE FULL DESCRIPTION" links.

Way back when in dealer training, we were trained in engine noises, and what we learned was that drivetrain noises transferred to the passenger cabin that aren't caused by worn parts were ALWAYS due to metal of the drive train or controls touching metal of the body.

NOW we know why VW says to remove the engine/ trans as a unit. Wink

Well, one of the reasons. It's hard for people to comprehend, but it's actually easier to maneuver that whole heavy setup in place and get it installed like this. Yes, you may need to invest in a bigger jack and make a plate or cradle, but...

The other thing is you need 4 jackstands to get your Bus up on and keep it level.

I think Colin needs to buy one of Notchboy's Westfalia trailers and haul some better equipment to do this right. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:04 am    Post subject: Re: Excessive Noise Coming Through Floor? Reply with quote

Very interesting Colin, my 71 makes a similar noise under power that's bugged me for years, I'm going to investigate the rod now.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Excessive Noise Coming Through Floor? Reply with quote

aeromech wrote:
So let me guess. Your bus is a later model with the bell housing "ears". So instead of pulling the engine and transmission as a unit, you took the "ear" bolts out of the rear carrier and allowed the transmission to dip down so the engine would come out easier. This bent the rear shift rod.


Yeah, when the transaxle slipped off the bottle jack.

aeromech wrote:

Obviously it's completely SGKents fault since you were at his house at the time.


You know, that is a good point. Razz

aeromech wrote:

Maybe next time it would be best to disconnect the shift rod coupler as well?


I have been doing the transaxle lowering method so you don't have to remove the rear tins of the engine when pulling it. What I did not know was how easily that rear shift rod bends. I straightened it with a bench press push.

IF, IF... I quiet down the BobD after inspecting it for a bent shift rod (it had a jack failure in Yuma that was not nice to the transaxle), then I will have a whole new outlook on eradicating the noises that I and others have become accustomed to over the years.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Excessive Noise Coming Through Floor? Reply with quote

Fuck. I knew it was Steve’s fault
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Excessive Noise Coming Through Floor? Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
Very interesting Colin, my 71 makes a similar noise under power that's bugged me for years, I'm going to investigate the rod now.



I have not done a write up yet, so I will only say here that you need to remove the shift rod/tube boot at the rear and see how the rod is centered as it enters the tube in neutral - slightly up in 3rd, slightly down in 4th. Then visually check how the shift rod passes through the crossmember holes just in front of the torsion bar tube. I had an actual divot in the rearmost cross member hole where the dropping transaxle had stuffed the coupler into the ceiling and the rod had bent at the fulcrum of the cross member hole.

The shift rod has to float in the bushings at all times. I drove another 230 miles today on I-25/I-40, and the absence of thumping through the floor under load is remarkable.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Excessive Noise Coming Through Floor? Reply with quote

ultralite wrote:
I followed the link and read the post, particularly the part about the mission to visit every Bus. My Bus is in Atlanta, you can start there. 😄 (we met a couple of years ago at Thinking Man Tavern)

I don’t know if this is the source of my noise(s). But I’d like to hear this quiet Bus of yours.


Let's do it. Pizza and beer out of the city center up some 285/85/75 whatever, and we'll do a little interstate noise test.
Colin
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Excessive Noise Coming Through Floor? Reply with quote

I dropped my engine and trans as a unit, what do I need to do to ensure it goes in level?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Excessive Noise Coming Through Floor? Reply with quote

Amskeptic wrote:
busdaddy wrote:
Very interesting Colin, my 71 makes a similar noise under power that's bugged me for years, I'm going to investigate the rod now.



I have not done a write up yet, so I will only say here that you need to remove the shift rod/tube boot at the rear and see how the rod is centered as it enters the tube in neutral - slightly up in 3rd, slightly down in 4th. Then visually check how the shift rod passes through the crossmember holes just in front of the torsion bar tube. I had an actual divot in the rearmost cross member hole where the dropping transaxle had stuffed the coupler into the ceiling and the rod had bent at the fulcrum of the cross member hole.

The shift rod has to float in the bushings at all times. I drove another 230 miles today on I-25/I-40, and the absence of thumping through the floor under load is remarkable.
Colin

And that's what I was going to look at, I've looked while it was in neutral, and even shimmed under the front trans mount thinking it may have sagged and petrified over time, but now I'll look while it's in 4th gear where the noise happens. This bus has always been noisy compared to others and maybe a PO dropped the trans, I've never been able to swallow that VW could have sold millions of these things making that much noise.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:19 am    Post subject: Re: Excessive Noise Coming Through Floor? Reply with quote

ivwshane wrote:
I dropped my engine and trans as a unit, what do I need to do to ensure it goes in level?


If you have them together as a unit, all you have to do is hoist them into place while being reasonably balanced.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:06 am    Post subject: Re: Excessive Noise Coming Through Floor? Reply with quote

the central shift rod should be laser straight...in any position...in any gear. the only "bend" or angle it has is in the "shepards" hook where the coupler bolts to.

the hockey stick goes in/out left/right...that's it. if your rod is off center, it's bent, or some meathead dicked up the shift rod tube and bent both.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:16 am    Post subject: Re: Excessive Noise Coming Through Floor? Reply with quote

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
the central shift rod should be laser straight...in any position...in any gear. the only "bend" or angle it has is in the "shepards" hook where the coupler bolts to.


Straight yes, but when a drive gear is selected the shift rod will not be centered perfectly in its tube. The bay window drivetrain has a 3-degree tilt nose down so the coupler WILL move an almost undetectable amount up when shifting into 1/3, and the same amount down for 2/4/R. I assume this is why shuttlecock bushings are used when two donuts like the late bay front bushings would have been more economical and easier to instal if the hockey stick mechanism was truly parallell with the shift rod.

- -

I’m really digging this concept. Going to check three buses for centered rods today...

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:00 am    Post subject: Re: Excessive Noise Coming Through Floor? Reply with quote

aeromech wrote:
Fuck. I knew it was Steve’s fault


Steve: "Coiln lets pull the engine and trans out together so we don't bend the shift rod. At least disconnect the shift rod."

Colin in a nasty commandeering tone "No, I don't want to pull the trans and leave the shift rod alone, it will be fine. "

Colin is a fine master of VW bus repair but sometimes in too much of a hurry. He is always welcome here.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:38 am    Post subject: Re: Excessive Noise Coming Through Floor? Reply with quote

asiab3 wrote:
words


I disagree. the rod rotates and goes back and forth...that's it.

shuttlecocks keep it from bouncing around...it's only 9 feet long.

but...whatever. see what you come up with. having had more shift rods out over the years that's how they work.

if it is getting off center it's because of bad bushings or a worn socket/shifter pin putting a load on them.

the rod WILL bend if you hammer it into gear...they are kind of flexible that way...but the do NOT go elliptical when selecting gears.

now to prove I know that the rod goes in/out left/right 100% straight...here are solid Delrin bushings I had made, and use in all of my buses

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


no rattle, no bullshit......

so by your thoughts I shouldn't be able to catch any gear...which is 100% not true
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Excessive Noise Coming Through Floor? Reply with quote

Skills, I see what you’re saying now.

In 1968 the bay bus got the engine dropped down a few inches and the nose cone tilted down a few degrees. Along with the powertrain move, a new shift coupler was introduced (what we use from 68-79) since the split buses used a straight coupling like an EMT pipe conduit connector. Your brushing setup relies on the fact that our shift couplers have the ability to shift pitch during normal operation, allowing the shift rod to operate in a 100% straight line if desired, even if the hockey stick is tilted three degrees down. I didn’t think of that possibility earlier.

Why do y’all think VW continued to use the shuttlecock bushings then, instead of a much more economical bushing like yours?
I’m genuinely curious.

I’ve only had three shift rods out this calendar year... But my own bus this very morning had a shift rod defty crammed to the lower left side of the conduit. (Hasn’t been touched since 2015.) Disconnecting the coupler allowed the shift rod to recenter itself in the tube, so I loosened the two vertical nosecone mount bolts and bumped the transaxle to the right and found the shift rod now centered horizontally, though still a bit low. I shimmed the nose cone mount like busdaddy mentioned, and got it close to dead nuts centered.

I don’t notice a difference in chassis noise, though I didn’t have any before. It did eliminate my shift rattle in third, and the physical act of moving the shifter is significantly easier than before.

Robbie
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Excessive Noise Coming Through Floor? Reply with quote

This is an interesting and educational thread. I had my shift rod out to clean, re lubricate and install new bushings. I didn't even think to check it's straightness. I also didn't check to see how centered it is in the tube. Shocked

I had the transmission overhauled 4 years ago. After installation, I had a odd noise/vibration when suddenly lifting off the throttle under high RPMS in 3rd and 4th gear. I took it to the transmission shop and the owner drove it. He was super surprised with the noise and couldn't fathom what was causing it. He said if I took the trans out and back to him, he'd look at it again. Great guy.

I didn't remove the transmission as I never got around to it. A few years later, my clutch pressure plate went soft. I replaced it and installed the spring loaded clutch disc vs. the solid that was in it.

During the first drive with the new clutch and pressure plate, I noticed the noise/vibration was gone when lifting off the throttle quickly. Now it makes me wonder if it was the old pressure plate causing the issue or maybe I had the transmission cocked and the shift tube was rubbing/rattling? Hum.. Think
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Excessive Noise Coming Through Floor? Reply with quote

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
asiab3 wrote:
words


I disagree. the rod rotates and goes back and forth...that's it.

shuttlecocks keep it from bouncing around...it's only 9 feet long.

but...whatever. see what you come up with. having had more shift rods out over the years that's how they work.

if it is getting off center it's because of bad bushings or a worn socket/shifter pin putting a load on them.

the rod WILL bend if you hammer it into gear...they are kind of flexible that way...but the do NOT go elliptical when selecting gears.

now to prove I know that the rod goes in/out left/right 100% straight...here are solid Delrin bushings I had made, and use in all of my buses

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


no rattle, no bullshit......

so by your thoughts I shouldn't be able to catch any gear...which is 100% not true


Wouldn't those tend to still transfer some noise, though? I'd think if one were to do that something like foam rubber or water pipe insulation might be a wiser choice... closed cell, of course.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Excessive Noise Coming Through Floor? Reply with quote

^^ I was wondering the same thing. There had to be a reason VW used those original bushings with that flexible design. They'd have some give and not transfer noise or vibrations.

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