Is our bus going to ignite!?!?!?! Firemen called.. neighbors mad

[UtahGOgear]

Link


Okay guys, we finally wrapped up our '78 FI bus project. We bought a motor from a guy who swears it's good and was pulled from a low mileage bus that was hit head-on. Well... after we handed over the cash he told us he hadn't actually heard it run. Wtf whatever... so we took it home and I've spend the last while just putting things together. I got it running and it backfired and I replaced spark plugs and such to get rid of it... turns out I had some spark plug wires switched and now it runs perfect... well almost...

OKAY- so long story short, it burns tons of oil because *(theory) I tipped the motor with everything attached (tins, exhaust, etc...) backward on the clutch/flywheel side to the floor when seeing how to replace the engine mounts/rubber. I had it back like this for maybe a day or so and it leaked quite a bit of oil out the back... well I guess it filled the exhaust with oil too because when we first tried to start it it spat tons of oil all over the side of our white Vanagon (was parked right next to it) and continued to do that because the muffler was just like full of oil. It would drip tons too.
So we get it going today only to head toward the gas station and realize that behind us there was so much smoke that it seemed like the entire bus was on fire. Thankfully we caught it in time and booked it back home. We let it idle for about 5 minutes and when we got out it was all over the neighborhood- like there was a house on fire. Our neighbors were yelling... we got knocks on the door... it was a mess.

So, is this amount of oil because I tilted it back for so long and oil just leaked out from gravity and somehow into the exhaust? It runs great and seems to push great power. I mean, there was no oil in it before or it would have spilt in transporting it because the muffler was just full to the brim with it but maybe it's an internal leak or the rings are like... gone?

Any input as to knowing if this is normal? Should I drive it on the freeway tonight to try to burn off the oil, or will this light up the bus? It's only in the exhaust I think because after pulling/replacing the plugs earlier today they were dry. Should I pull the entire exhaust and try to clean it with degreaser or something? I've put a lot into this bus to get it back on the road and the last thing I want is to catch fire because some oil is in the muffler..... [/youtube]
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RIP:
'82 Westy a/c
'82 Westy 1.6D
'78 Transporter Moon Roof Camper Conversion
'78 Westy Restoration
'85 Westy 1.8T AEB 50* w/adapter plate
'87 Syncro 2.1 WBX
'91 1.8T ATW 50* w/diesel components
Currently enjoying:
'97 Eurovan Winnebago

[Wildthings]

You would have flooded the front of the rocker boxes and the #1 and 3 cylinders with oil, left on end over night enough oil would have gone down the valve guides and past the ring to make lots of smoke, so yes it is going to smoke like crazy for a while. Maybe just fire it up late at night and take it for a drive. It should be pretty clean after 10 miles or so.

You could also have someone tow you out into the desert where no one will see the smoke before starting it again.

[SGKent]

[UtahGOgear]

[UtahGOgear]

Yikes- so that didn't exactly work... it's worse than I thought

The bold is for those who don't want to read it all, I do ramble quite a bit... hoping to hear back soon from y'all! Our baby is due Saturday and I'd sure like to get this thing wrapped up to enjoy and not worry about before he gets here! I guess we'll see if we can figure it out before then

We drove to a secluded road this afternoon and got some weird looks as we smoked out everyone on the way over to it. It was extremely bad! Did better in 2nd gear when the RPM's really really got up there... I felt kind of bad riding it that hard but it needed to heat up I thought to burn off the oil better.

Well, we drove maybe two miles to our spot where we planned to just drive back and forth but it got a lot worse- the smoke was just too much to the point where others couldn't see if they came on the road and even with wind we could look back and still see our smoke from about half a mile back. Things just didn't seem right so I checked the oil suspecting maybe this is an internal problem... sure enough we had lost about AN ENTIRE QUART OF OIL! I mean, the things just running off oil I swear!

So- I pulled the plugs again and cylinder #3 (driver side toward front of bus) was wet with oil and soot. I mean, it was bad. Well... there was also loads of oil spilling out underneath from #3's area. I'll ad pictures so you can all see and hopefully hook me up with some input or advice as to how to solve this problem.

Man, other than this defeat the bus ran great! Got going easily 100 kilometers/hr on 3 cylinders! (I un-plugged #3's spark plug wire hoping it would somehow like improve things on the drive home... it didn't... but yeah the bus ran great and I'm happy we've gotten this far but really kind of sad that the fellow who sold it to us said it came from a low mile bus... we got ripped off I guess, but maybe he didn't know... who knows....

Anyway, I'm thinking that perhaps it's worn rings or the valve seals maybe? Yikes! Anything I should be checking before diving in?? Is it possible to take that side heads off without dropping the motor? That would sure be nice.

Thanks in advance!

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RIP:
'82 Westy a/c
'82 Westy 1.6D
'78 Transporter Moon Roof Camper Conversion
'78 Westy Restoration
'85 Westy 1.8T AEB 50* w/adapter plate
'87 Syncro 2.1 WBX
'91 1.8T ATW 50* w/diesel components
Currently enjoying:
'97 Eurovan Winnebago

[Wildthings]

The external leaks could potentially be fixed without too much effort, new valve cover gaskets and maybe pushrod tube o-rings, but assuming the rings and or valve guides are bad on #3 that of course is going to take some work to fix, as per an engine pull and disassembly. You might find that the oil use may partially be caused by a plugged or overwhelmed crankcase ventilation system that will need to be fixed as part of your overall project as well.

[UtahGOgear]

When I got the motor the PCV had a crack on the bottom of it (the plastic part) and so I super glued the crack closed... would this part have anything to do with this? I'm still pretty hazy as to how exactly these things work, but maybe pressure is off in the crank case forcing oil past the rings to burn and blowing gaskets/seals thus the leak? Hm... seems like you can test the diaphragm by sucking on the hole and if there's no air coming through then it's good, but I wonder what my options are as far as trying to test if the pressure is the problem here...?
_________________
RIP:
'82 Westy a/c
'82 Westy 1.6D
'78 Transporter Moon Roof Camper Conversion
'78 Westy Restoration
'85 Westy 1.8T AEB 50* w/adapter plate
'87 Syncro 2.1 WBX
'91 1.8T ATW 50* w/diesel components
Currently enjoying:
'97 Eurovan Winnebago

[Wildthings]

If you remove and plug the hose from the breather and run the engine do you get air pulsing out of the breather?

Valve cover gaskets are cheap and easy to replace so why not at least stop any leaks there and also get a view of what is going on inside the rocker boxes. You can grab the valves and see how much they move around in their guides and look for other oddities.

[williamM]

valve guide seals are a thing of the past- they tended to just cook and break off- ending up in the screen.

Would really hope your oil is coming from the valve covers- But- if you would take a towel and wipe the exhaust interior and it comes back wet oil- you have internal problems. My guess will be #3 scuffed pistons. Seen a few and they were all caused by improper adjust or removal of thermostat flaps.

If you get that far- by all means pull that rod and check the bearing- It takes some energy to drag a piston around and may have had an effect on that rod bearing.
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some days I get up and just sit and think. Some days I just sit.

opinion untempered by fact is ignorance.

Don't step in any!

[SGKent]

do a compression test on the one that is wet. Let's see if there is a cracked piston or one with a hole in it. This reminds me of when I burned a hole in a piston on my 1971. It was on that day I learned you can't cool an air-cooled VW like you can a water cooled racing engine.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[Abscate]

Your gushing oil from a valve cover that isnt on right or is broken.

You might have an oil ring problem too, but fix one thing at a time.

Ive never seen an oil ring so bad it burns a liter in 10s of kilometers/miles
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.ssS!

[my59]

I had a 67 Corvair, blue, that developed an oil burning problem to the point that at a red light if there was no wind you could not see the car for the cloud. Drove until I was pulled over 3 times in an afternoon, and got tickets for excessive pollution.
The valve guides were shot, and the rings done in. The PO must gave been using an alternative oil when he sold it to my old man, as it didn't smoke visibly at all.....
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my59: Well son, my grandfather died before I got to drive it, so does that answer your question?
our79: sunroof bus w/camper interior and 2.0 FI
Other:'12 Jetta, '77 Benz 300D, and a 74 MG Midget.

[UtahGOgear]

Compression Check Results:
1- 80psi (ouch)
2- 120psi
3- 90psi
4- 120psi

Everything seems to be leaking near Cyl. 3, however, that's pretty low compression on 1 as well, and as pictured all of the spark plugs seem to have oil residue on them. It ran great, but what could be causing all of this?

What conclusions can we draw from these numbers? Is it safe to say perhaps the rings are worn down on 1 and 3 but not enough to really tear down the engine just yet, or is this something I need to do right away? I was hoping to enjoy the bus this fall a bit and work on it more in the winter time. It would be nice to be able to just get it going as it seemed to drive great on the test (minus the clouds of smoke)

I have other pictures as well... I had my hand over the crankcase breather and there was air puffing out a bit when turning the engine over. I don't know if this part somehow is being restrictive though because the flap thing that's usually inside isn't there it seems- you can see all the way up to the top of the plastic cap. Could this be causing built up pressure that blew the valve seal and is shoving oil up past all rings and burning it???

There is also oil just on the driver side that is on top of the tin. I can't tell where it's leaking from, but it's for sure there and the other side of the motor by cylinders 1 & 2 are completely dry... maybe it just came up from the blown valve seal?

I also have a different oil filler cap than I've seen. I was planning to ad a filter to the tube sticking out to the side of it. I've tried turning the entire plastic thing to see if blocking off the tube with the metal underneath would change anything but saw no changes. Is this normal? I assume it wouldn't affect much... but perhaps it's messing with the vacuum that the breather is supposed to be pulling... or something... I have no clue!!!

Any thoughts are greatly appreciated! Thanks!
_________________
RIP:
'82 Westy a/c
'82 Westy 1.6D
'78 Transporter Moon Roof Camper Conversion
'78 Westy Restoration
'85 Westy 1.8T AEB 50* w/adapter plate
'87 Syncro 2.1 WBX
'91 1.8T ATW 50* w/diesel components
Currently enjoying:
'97 Eurovan Winnebago

[KentABQ]

Check to see if the oil pressure switch is leaking. It will leak between the electrical contact and the housing. And it will spray a fine mist over the left side of the engine. It's easy to check and replace if this is one of the problems.
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-Kent-
1976 Riviera, 1.8l FI chrome yellow VAN - "Chloe"

"I must say, how can you be in a bad mood driving this vehicle full of vibrant color.
Cars of today are so bland in comparison. It's like driving a celebration!" ---WildIdea

Bus ownership via emoticons:
---williamM

[Wildthings]

You could be belching oil out of your oil filler setup towards the driver's side of the engine. The filler tube mates to the case at about the oil level so any crankcase pressure is going to force oil up the tube and out the nipple.

On a normal motor if you leave the oil filler cap off you can throw oil over the engine compartment, been there, done that.

As far as the compression being low, I would suspect there your oil problem has been around for a while and that the PO could have easily run the engine low on oil damaging the rings when doing so.

[SGKent]

I have not see a hose connection on the oil filler. Is there a hose that goes to that?
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[UtahGOgear]

Alrighty, I think I've found the problem.

I started pulling the exhaust on the 3 & 4 side to get a better look at where the leak was coming from and hopefully figure out what's up... I checked the temp sensor and it seems real tight and in there, I replaced it with a new one when the engine fell into our lap, actually it was $1,100 and that sucked, but life goes on I guess. I pulled that exhaust header and WilliamM reminded me to check the exhaust for oil while I was down there... nothing!

So- there I was contemplating what was going on and why there wasn't any oil in the exhaust anymore, that's when I remember wildthings mentioned the crankcase ventilation system and I got to thinking back on how the breather was blown and so I did the test where you suck on that hole and it didn't close... it was disgusting though and my wife looked at me weird as I sucked on it and got oil all over my mouth even though I wiped it off first... so anyway that things toast because the valve thing inside just isn't there and it's a straight shot through.

So that got me thinking about how weird it is that it feeds into the vacuum of the intake boot. I was trying to explain it to my wife and at one point I said, "I don't know why you'd want a straight shot form the breather to the intake boot... I mean it's got to pull a vacuum for some reason but you think you'd get a fine mist of oil coming through..." then it frickin clicked... there was tons of oil on it and... was a straight shot all the way through to the hose to the intake boot... then am I just literally sucking oil in from the breather straight to the intake manifold via hose to boot? Hmmm.. I checked that boot and wiped my finger in it and it was doused in oil. I looked inside that throttle and man, the thing was just covered in soot and oil like nothin i'd seen. And let me tell ya, I detailed that sucker a few times before installing it along with all the other engine prep/seals I did to refresh the motor prior to install. I've learned a lesson or two on cheeping out....

Anyway- I guess It's oil feeding right through the breather to the intake and I've just been burning that on and off as it's splashed up and gotten sucked in. I replaced all vacuum lines and everything so that sucker's tight and must pull a great vacuum.

Anywayyyyy thanks guys! Without y'alls advice and thoughts I would have overlooked it and perhaps pulled the head or something daft

I'm praying this is the problem... but what's the solution??? Any thoughts on just replacing the breather with a used one vs other things like plugging the hose and running a filter off the breather? Thanks!!
_________________
RIP:
'82 Westy a/c
'82 Westy 1.6D
'78 Transporter Moon Roof Camper Conversion
'78 Westy Restoration
'85 Westy 1.8T AEB 50* w/adapter plate
'87 Syncro 2.1 WBX
'91 1.8T ATW 50* w/diesel components
Currently enjoying:
'97 Eurovan Winnebago

[mikedjames]

Often the blow by from bad rings will provide a stream of oil mist and gases under pressure
Even with a one way valve the mist will still be sucked through, as the valve allows flow from breather to manifold.
Fixing that valve might help some but it does not fix the source of the gases that are driving the oil out of the engine.

Using a breather system with a way of catching the oil might help.. A filter will just get soaked then dribble or spray oil.

I think the answer will be at least piston rimgs.. having got in there replacing pistons and cylinders is a fraction of the professional labour cost of getting deep in an engine in the first place
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Ancient vehicles and vessels

1974 VW T2 : Devon Eurovette camper with 1641 DP T1 engine, Progressive carb, full flow oil cooler, EDIS crank timed ignition.
Engine 1: 40k miles (rocker shaft clip fell off), Engine 2: 30k miles (rebuild, dropped valve). Engine 3: a JK Preservation Parts "new" engine, aluminium case: 26k miles: new top end.
Gearbox rebuild 2021 by Bears.

1979 Westerly GK24 24 foot racer/cruiser yacht Forethought of Gosport.
1973 wooden Pacer sailing dinghy

[SGKent]

so here is what is going on and it has to be dealt with. There will be some changes that will occur when it is fixed.

It there are any openings that air can get into the case, that air is being sucked into the case and out thru the breather into the S-boot. That not only alters the air to fuel ratio, but with lots of air coming thru it would pull oil as well. It would not be leaking all over the floor however.

So the first thing is you need the correct oil filler without the hose connection on it. You can put a small hose on it for now and pinch it off with bolt or something - keep it away from the belt and fan.

The second thing is you need to pull the valve covers off and get some good gaskets for them, clean then reseal them. Adjust the valves while you are in there. Check the oil pressure sender and distributor base for leaks too. It could be a bad main seal which requires an engine pull to fix.

Once you do those two things the engine may or may not run better. One possibility is that the AFM has been made way rich to deal with the air leak. Another possibility is that the engine has a bad case of blowby from worn rings or guides, and that it will continue to spit oil out from that. The hose connection on the oil filler may be the prior owner's attempt to get rid of that blowby. If excessive blowby happens then the engine needs to be rebuilt. You will also need to look for a working PCV (getting harder to find), or find the thread here where someone 3-D printed one, contact them and see what is involved getting one and did it hold up. The valve is sealed with glue or ultrasound welded at the factory so sometimes they don't come apart easily. Set aside an hour when you go to take the top off so you can go around the seam carefully breaking the weld without breaking the top.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[KTPhil]

karma tip: Go park it at the front of the house of the guy who sold you the engine. Top off the oil. Start and run it for 30 minutes before pulling away.