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i_luv_my_bus76
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2012
Posts: 371
Location: High Desert
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 Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:47 pm Post subject: I cut my balance tube single port dual Kadrons |
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After many many many suggestions to cut my balance tube, I caved in.
But now my manifolds seem to sit at an angle after tightened down. I feel as if the balance tube helped them stay square. Now that the manifolds sit slight pointed in toward the fan shroud I can't get the linkage short enough to connect it
Any suggestions? Did i totally screw up cutting the balance tube?
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Lingwendil
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Joined: February 25, 2009
Posts: 3988
Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:00 pm Post subject: Re: I cut my balance tube single port dual Kadrons |
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Did you put new intake gaskets in when you had the manifolds off? My experience is that they only ever seal well and sit correctly once...
You may have to turn the heim joins out a little on either end to get more room, but it does seem that they are tilting in a bit.
I'm not going to lie, when I first read the title of the post I cried a little 
The tubes are only intact once. The tube does seem to do well as a brace, but a rod from aircleaner stud to stud can help stiffen things up again.
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i_luv_my_bus76
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Joined: May 18, 2012
Posts: 371
Location: High Desert
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| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: I cut my balance tube single port dual Kadrons |
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| Lingwendil wrote: |
Did you put new intake gaskets in when you had the manifolds off? My experience is that they only ever seal well and sit correctly once...
You may have to turn the heim joins out a little on either end to get more room, but it does seem that they are tilting in a bit.
I'm not going to lie, when I first read the title of the post I cried a little
The tubes are only intact once. The tube does seem to do well as a brace, but a rod from aircleaner stud to stud can help stiffen things up again. |
Yeah I changed the manifold gaskets... I'm really baffled cause everything was fine before I removed the intake manifold and cut the balance tube. I have 1000 miles on the engine, I had an external oil cooler mounted behind the fan shroud I decided to move it above the tranny and reroute the oil lines and figured while I was doing that I can cut my balance tube... the problem is that I can't connect the linkage. With the linkage screwed all the way in it is too long |
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chrisflstf
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Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 3446
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: I cut my balance tube single port dual Kadrons |
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| Maybe the bottom of the intake manifold is sitting on the cylinder tin, instead of the head |
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bugguy1967
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Joined: January 16, 2008
Posts: 4343
Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: I cut my balance tube single port dual Kadrons |
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The balance tube must've been pushing on something. It was probably for the best though, as now everything is sitting as it's supposed to without stresses from the tube.
Question: are you eliminating a connection altogether, or just switching to a hose? Why no balance tube?
Cut the rods down and thread the heim back in.
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i_luv_my_bus76
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Joined: May 18, 2012
Posts: 371
Location: High Desert
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| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:11 pm Post subject: Re: I cut my balance tube single port dual Kadrons |
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| chrisflstf wrote: |
| Maybe the bottom of the intake manifold is sitting on the cylinder tin, instead of the head |
I will check that to.orrow good idea |
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i_luv_my_bus76
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Joined: May 18, 2012
Posts: 371
Location: High Desert
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| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: I cut my balance tube single port dual Kadrons |
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| bugguy1967 wrote: |
The balance tube must've been pushing on something. It was probably for the best though, as now everything is sitting as it's supposed to without stresses from the tube.
Question: are you eliminating a connection altogether, or just switching to a hose? Why no balance tube?
Cut the rods down and thread the heim back in. |
The balance tube made the carbs sit flat like they are suppose to...
I cut the balance tube because a few older vw guys I know who have been kadrons for a really long time told me I should and replace the metal balance tube with a piece of rubber hose. Their reasoning was that I could pull the manifolds without removing the shroud and my external oil cooler lines also it makes it easier to balance them...but now my carbs won't sit correctly
Last edited by i_luv_my_bus76 on Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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oprn
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Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12738
Location: Western Canada
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| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: I cut my balance tube single port dual Kadrons |
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I suspect the balance tube was helping to support the carbs properly. The added weight and height of the Kadrons may be too much for the copper gaskets and manifold bolts to support and will now continually loosen from normal engine vibration. You will now be chasing intake leaks and linkage synchronizing issues continually.
Yes I removed the balance tube on my Kadrons too but it was a dual port engine and they are supported far better at the base of the manifold.
Put it back the way it was or build support brackets that go from the carbs or air cleaner bases to the fan shroud to support them. |
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i_luv_my_bus76
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Joined: May 18, 2012
Posts: 371
Location: High Desert
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| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: I cut my balance tube single port dual Kadrons |
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| oprn wrote: |
I suspect the balance tube was helping to support the carbs properly. The added weight and height of the Kadrons may be too much for the copper gaskets and manifold bolts to support and will now continually loosen from normal engine vibration. You will now be chasing intake leaks and linkage synchronizing issues continually.
Yes I removed the balance tube on my Kadrons too but it was a dual port engine and they are supported far better at the base of the manifold.
Put it back the way it was or build support brackets that go from the carbs or air cleaner bases to the fan shroud to support them. |
I'm not convinced it is a weight issue...one would think they would lean the opposite direction right? |
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FeelthySanchez
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Joined: February 03, 2011
Posts: 1349
Location: Now is that a real poncho, or a Sears poncho?
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:03 am Post subject: Re: I cut my balance tube single port dual Kadrons |
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| i_luv_my_bus76 wrote: |
| I'm not convinced it is a weight issue |
Good logic, it might have some fit/interference issues.
Could ya tell us what S/P heads are now installed - i.e. some earlier types (ala 1966 1300cc) have a much smaller intake port/crush ring gasket, & may not readily accept the OEM Kaddy steel manifold bases w/out some tinkering.
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| I would like if you had enough clue to communicate what you are doing. |
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| Enough clue..Whats that mean? |
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I'm not sure how compression works.
Turbos don't produce torque, they produce HP. Instead of torque.
The real problem with NA engines is you don't hear the nice whine of the turbo as it spools up.
Before I commit, I'm going to do more research because I don't really know what piston rings are. |
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i_luv_my_bus76
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Joined: May 18, 2012
Posts: 371
Location: High Desert
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:26 am Post subject: Re: I cut my balance tube single port dual Kadrons |
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| FeelthySanchez wrote: |
| i_luv_my_bus76 wrote: |
| I'm not convinced it is a weight issue |
Good logic, it might have some fit/interference issues.
Could ya tell us what S/P heads are now installed - i.e. some earlier types (ala 1966 1300cc) have a much smaller intake port/crush ring gasket, & may not readily accept the OEM Kaddy steel manifold bases w/out some tinkering. |
The heads are new 1500 single port heads from aircooled.net. The manifolds fit perfectly before I moved my external oil cooler, I have around 1000 to 1200 miles on this engine. I did however buy new upper cylinder tins, the factory ones had a few holes in them and were pretty corroded, i had to do some mods to the tins to get them to fit up (a little bringing and cutting of excess material)... I am thinking that might be an issue
Has anyone heard of the aftermarket tins cause any issues like what I'm experiencing |
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Brian_e
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Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 3292
Location: Rapid City, SD
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:09 am Post subject: Re: I cut my balance tube single port dual Kadrons |
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I tossed a set of Kads w/ old stock steel intakes on the mystery 1600 in my bus. I noticed the same thing. They both sit crooked. It is kinda hard to tell in the pics, but they both tilt to the inside. My tube is cut as well.
I assembled them with the engine out, and made sure they are seated on the intake flanges correctly with new sealing rings. I have been running them tilted for a month or so now, and they tuned and run just fine.
If you are running a Scat center pull you will usually need to cut one rod down anyways to get the linkage to throw correctly. It will take some fiddling, but with the correct angle on the center pivot, you will be able to get idle and full throttle to both happen at the same time.
Brian |
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i_luv_my_bus76
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Joined: May 18, 2012
Posts: 371
Location: High Desert
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:36 am Post subject: Re: I cut my balance tube single port dual Kadrons |
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| Brian_e wrote: |
I tossed a set of Kads w/ old stock steel intakes on the mystery 1600 in my bus. I noticed the same thing. They both sit crooked. It is kinda hard to tell in the pics, but they both tilt to the inside. My tube is cut as well.
I assembled them with the engine out, and made sure they are seated on the intake flanges correctly with new sealing rings. I have been running them tilted for a month or so now, and they tuned and run just fine.
If you are running a Scat center pull you will usually need to cut one rod down anyways to get the linkage to throw correctly. It will take some fiddling, but with the correct angle on the center pivot, you will be able to get idle and full throttle to both happen at the same time.
Brian |
I am using a Scat linkage, and steel manifolds... yours is leaning but I feel mine is a super exagerated lean like it is being hung up on something, I am going to check the tins when I get home.
If I do have to cut the linkage, what side should I cut? Long side (passanger) or short side? |
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Brian_e
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Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 3292
Location: Rapid City, SD
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:20 am Post subject: Re: I cut my balance tube single port dual Kadrons |
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They are 45 year old steel manifolds built before modern machinery. I am sure there will be some tilting and tweaking over the years. If you really want them straight, just cut the top flange off flush, grind the high side, and weld the flange back on.
I think I usually end up cutting about 3/8" off the pass. side and re-tap the hole deeper. It all depends on the angle of the center pivot when looking straight down on it. Hard to explain. You can adjust the idle/WOT sync by lengthening and shortening the rods till its right.
Brian |
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i_luv_my_bus76
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Joined: May 18, 2012
Posts: 371
Location: High Desert
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| Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: I cut my balance tube single port dual Kadrons |
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So here's a little update...
The issue was the empi single port upper cylinder tins...I ended up having to cut the manifold opening larger so that the manifolds could sit properly. Still learning slightly but definitely alot better
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Clatter
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Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7549
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: I cut my balance tube single port dual Kadrons |
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Always suspect the China parts first.. 
Glad to hear it worked out.
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veeweeman
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Joined: December 20, 2009
Posts: 940
Location: New Port Richey, FL
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| Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: I cut my balance tube single port dual Kadrons |
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All single ports have a tapered fit and the balance tube was the structure to keep them square. ..what you should have done was drill a hole in the middle and fill will JB Weld, that way you could have kept it square and separate the carbs from each other at the same time. ..weld it back together and do what I suggested. ..good luck.
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