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944 NA brake conversion. 1302 or 1303 suspension
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sshulk
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:31 am    Post subject: 944 NA brake conversion. 1302 or 1303 suspension Reply with quote

So, according to http://vdubengineering.com/technical/porsche-brake-conversions-2/
There are two methods on converting early 944 NA brakes onto a super beetle.

Quote:
#1) Take the whole 944 spindle. This only applies to 1303’s. The 944 spindle will interchange with your 1303 spindle. This applies to the early 944 NA spindles (rotor mounted to hub from behind). The stock 1303 strut (and early 944) has a 20mm wide tang and 58mm hole pitch. The later (86+) 944 spindles have a 18mm tang width and 63mm hole pitch, and therefore will not be compatible with the 1303 struts.You will need special lower ball joints (17mm for 944 vs 15mm for stock 1303) available from european sources. If you have a 1302, then change your suspension (struts, spindles, lower control arms) to 1303 components. By using the 944 spindles, you have all required mounting points for the calipers/hubs etc. Your dub will be 944 from the spindle out. There may be an issue with the speedometer cable, as some 944 spindles are not machined for the cable. The tie rod mounting location may need reversing, easy to do with the current availability of the ‘bump-steer’ bushings. Also the tie-rod will have to be longer since the 944 steering arm on the spindle is straight, whereas the 1303 steering arm curves in towards the center of the car. The 1302/1303 tie rod ends will work with the 944 spindles. Overall, you will have to source everything from a 944, spindle out to perform this conversion. There is an offset increase of about 20mm (?) per side. The 944 spindle will also give you alot of positive camber, but you maybe able to remedy this situation with aftermarket camber adjustment bolt that afford greater adjustment.


and

Quote:
#2) Modify 944 parts. Because the 944 hubs do not have the same bearings as T1’s, the 944 hubs can be modified to take regular T1’s bearings. The hubs also require narrowing. The spindle will require machining to mount a caliper bracket. Ideally, a mounting bracket would bolt into the stock drum-brake-backing-plate mounting locations of your T1 spindle. The 944 hubs are ‘fat’ at the inner bearing area, so they are too large to allow a bolt on caliper bracket. The mounting fasteners would interfere with the hub. The rear (inner) portion of the hubs have to be machined to be perpendicular with the spindle axis, and then a fabricated bracket can bolt onto the back of the spindle. You will have to source 944 calipers, hubs and rotors, then get the hubs and spindles machined. Offset increase can be minimized to about 3.5mm per side, depending on the hub machining.


I will be using a set of Cup wheels, et 55, fronts 17x7s and rear 17x9s. My question is. For the front, Would it be smarter to use the entire 944 spindle

It is also possible to use
https://www.kerscher-tuning.de/kaefer/detail.php?id=215

which
Quote:


Height- adjustable sports suspension VA, from year 8/73 1303 from Mod. 08/73
for vehicles with Porsche 944 steering knuckle

1-spring system with Koni Special (red) adjustable for front axle (2-spring system on request)
lowering 30-80mm


But does this mean brakes? What do you guys think I should do?
Thank you Max
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ach60 Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:19 pm    Post subject: Re: 944 NA brake conversion. 1302 or 1303 suspension Reply with quote

Method #1 use the Porsche parts with the kerscher-tuning lower ball joint.
The Porsche spindle will accept the Porsche brakes, and it says it will fit the 1303 strut assy.
That means the Aftermarket 1303 Coil-over you looking at will work too.
I honestly never heard of Method two before
A lot of guys are building German "Look" and don't need the big ass brakes,
those guys can do fine with The Stuff from Topline Parts.
Looks from you other posts that you are building type 4 power so you're building a real German Look.
You'll spend big dollars with the Kerscher Tuning stuff, but you'll be happy.
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H2OSB
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:46 pm    Post subject: Re: 944 NA brake conversion. 1302 or 1303 suspension Reply with quote

Method 2 simply means modifying a porsche hub to use vw bearings, thus the hub then bolts onto a vw spindle. To mount the caliper, you then need some kind of adapter that bolts in place of the backing plate. This method would work for a 1302 OR 1303.

Method one only works on a 1303 as the 1302 strut cannot accommodate the 944 spindle...unless you swap out all of the early 3 bolt strut parts for the later two bolt parts (except for the upper strut mount....you should still keep the early mount on an early suspension car).

I would say the Porsche parts are more stout (bearings, et al), and less must be modified to use them, but I DETEST having to order the ball joints for a single company in Germany, even though that's what I did. Ultimately, I think using Porsche parts is the less expensive way to go. Unless you did my method... If I could do it again, I would buy the vented rotor and caliper kit from CSP that uses a caliper with 42mm pistons.

For the rear, by FAR, the easiest and least expensive way to go is using n/a Porsche 944 brakes. They are a direct bolt on except for the need of slightly longer tubes and swans (look that up).

Now, for my stupidity (stepping back and looking at the big picture...at the time I did it step by step, so didn't seem so dumb). I have 944 spindles with n/a 944 hubs. My rotors are n/a 944, turned down by 25mm in O.D. The calipers are late 914 but have a 10mm spacer harvested from REAR Porsche M calipers so they clear the vented rotors. The 914 calipers use the same mounting bolt spacing as n/a 944 front calipers therefore they bolt onto the 944 spindles. They are centered over the rotors by using 1.5mm thick shim washers. Lastly, the hub had some O.D. turned down to clear the body of the calipers. The most ridiculous thing I did was order custom bolts from Germany to properly use the spacers between the caliper halves. In the end, I'll have a nice, well balanced brake set up, but I think I could cried once and got the CSP parts and had the same thing with less stress.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:11 pm    Post subject: Re: 944 NA brake conversion. 1302 or 1303 suspension Reply with quote

H2OSB wrote:
If I could do it again, I would buy the vented rotor and caliper kit from CSP that uses a caliper with 42mm pistons.
H2OSB


And that kit is made by...Kerscher. Laughing Laughing
I went with the Tarox-kit with vented rotors and saved money in the process.
It is sold by Dei Kaefer Service out of Italy
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:47 pm    Post subject: Re: 944 NA brake conversion. 1302 or 1303 suspension Reply with quote

I cannot find a listing for aircooled VWs on the Tarox site. But yes, either of the Kerscher or CSP kits (they're the same price) would have been my choice if I could back up and do it all again. I just wish those parts were more readily available in the States (i.e. shipping is excessive).

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:49 am    Post subject: Re: 944 NA brake conversion. 1302 or 1303 suspension Reply with quote

Hi!
deikaeferservice.com sells brake kits for the aircooled market,Cagero of Switzerland as well but for a far higher price...I paid 863 Euros(including shipping from Italy)last year December.That included the steel braided brakehoses,bearings had to be ordered seperately.
They also have twin boltpatterns:
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Those are Kerscher struts btw.

Cheers,Arnoud
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:21 am    Post subject: Re: 944 NA brake conversion. 1302 or 1303 suspension Reply with quote

You may be surprised, but a whole 944 NA setup is not ideal for our cars. There were discussions on STF on brake pumps, but there are links to other topics from Germanlook.net, where the brake balance is explained. http://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=150676&start=15
In a few words, there is a front to rear ratio that yields best braking performance, and that is ~1.3-1.4 for beetles (also stock ratio). 944 has too large front calipers (54mm pots) compared to rear (36mm), so it is mostly front biased (ratio above 2). This means front tends to lock up first.
According to Wally's experience, the best brake setup he had was a combination of type3 or Karmann front calipers (42mm pots) with 944 rear setup (36mm pots).
Using a stepped pump (like 19/23mm Porsche pump) does not change balance, but it helps with brake fluid volume on large pots.
I have 944 NA brakes now, I did not have any issues and I locked the brakes a few times. I used the Porsche spindle and Kerscher balljoints. Rear is pretty much straightforward, except handbrake where you can get the kit either from Vdubengineering (recommended) and use stock beetle cables, or from Kerscher but you have to be a bit creative. I will swap to 944T brakes (4pot calipers) which give a ratio of 1.7, better than the current setup. For balljoints, I will do as Mike did on the Luftwaffe: cut the ball joint support on the arm and use '80s Passat ball joints. They can be fixed by 2 screws on the arm (just drill two holes) and they are 17mm. Easy to find anywhere. See in the pictures from link (a bit hard to identify, but you get the idea; you have to enter the website and click on Luftwaffe for pictures). https://mikes-boxerservice.com/
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 4:43 am    Post subject: Re: 944 NA brake conversion. 1302 or 1303 suspension Reply with quote

ach60 wrote:
Method #1 use the Porsche parts with the kerscher-tuning lower ball joint.
The Porsche spindle will accept the Porsche brakes, and it says it will fit the 1303 strut assy.
That means the Aftermarket 1303 Coil-over you looking at will work too.
I honestly never heard of Method two before
A lot of guys are building German "Look" and don't need the big ass brakes,
those guys can do fine with The Stuff from Topline Parts.
Looks from you other posts that you are building type 4 power so you're building a real German Look.
You'll spend big dollars with the Kerscher Tuning stuff, but you'll be happy.


Thats the goal! Im hoping to build to this car to one day be powered by a 3 litre type 4!
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:26 am    Post subject: Re: 944 NA brake conversion. 1302 or 1303 suspension Reply with quote

H2OSB wrote:
Method 2 simply means modifying a porsche hub to use vw bearings, thus the hub then bolts onto a vw spindle. To mount the caliper, you then need some kind of adapter that bolts in place of the backing plate. This method would work for a 1302 OR 1303.

Method one only works on a 1303 as the 1302 strut cannot accommodate the 944 spindle...unless you swap out all of the early 3 bolt strut parts for the later two bolt parts (except for the upper strut mount....you should still keep the early mount on an early suspension car).

I would say the Porsche parts are more stout (bearings, et al), and less must be modified to use them, but I DETEST having to order the ball joints for a single company in Germany, even though that's what I did. Ultimately, I think using Porsche parts is the less expensive way to go. Unless you did my method... If I could do it again, I would buy the vented rotor and caliper kit from CSP that uses a caliper with 42mm pistons.

H2OSB


It sounds like it may be a smarter idea to use this kit for the front
https://www.csp-shop.com/en/wheels-brakes/conversi...5861a.html
and then do the rears myself. I have been reading and it sounds like they do require some minor tweaking and tinkering to do the front, as well as adding some camber.

Im assuming I now would need to use a space to get the right fitment of a 17x7 et 55 wheel under a stock fender. is this correct?

Also should i still use the 1303 spindle or switch to a 1302?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:25 am    Post subject: Re: 944 NA brake conversion. 1302 or 1303 suspension Reply with quote

tzepesh wrote:
You may be surprised, but a whole 944 NA setup is not ideal for our cars. There were discussions on STF on brake pumps, but there are links to other topics from Germanlook.net, where the brake balance is explained. http://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=150676&start=15
In a few words, there is a front to rear ratio that yields best braking performance, and that is ~1.3-1.4 for beetles (also stock ratio). 944 has too large front calipers (54mm pots) compared to rear (36mm), so it is mostly front biased (ratio above 2). This means front tends to lock up first.
According to Wally's experience, the best brake setup he had was a combination of type3 or Karmann front calipers (42mm pots) with 944 rear setup (36mm pots).
Using a stepped pump (like 19/23mm Porsche pump) does not change balance, but it helps with brake fluid volume on large pots.
I have 944 NA brakes now, I did not have any issues and I locked the brakes a few times. I used the Porsche spindle and Kerscher balljoints. Rear is pretty much straightforward, except handbrake where you can get the kit either from Vdubengineering (recommended) and use stock beetle cables, or from Kerscher but you have to be a bit creative. I will swap to 944T brakes (4pot calipers) which give a ratio of 1.7, better than the current setup. For balljoints, I will do as Mike did on the Luftwaffe: cut the ball joint support on the arm and use '80s Passat ball joints. They can be fixed by 2 screws on the arm (just drill two holes) and they are 17mm. Easy to find anywhere. See in the pictures from link (a bit hard to identify, but you get the idea; you have to enter the website and click on Luftwaffe for pictures). https://mikes-boxerservice.com/


I would love more details about the passat ball joints, but that is brilliant!! THAT'S what I've been looking for for nearly 20 years! Thanks!

I agree about 944 front calipers being too large, thus why I went to all of the effort to use 914 calipers....I just think I could have done it smarter is all. I do NOT like modding consumables, such as rotors. It makes it seem like throw away machine work.

H2OSB


Last edited by H2OSB on Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:33 am    Post subject: Re: 944 NA brake conversion. 1302 or 1303 suspension Reply with quote

sshulk wrote:
H2OSB wrote:
Method 2 simply means modifying a porsche hub to use vw bearings, thus the hub then bolts onto a vw spindle. To mount the caliper, you then need some kind of adapter that bolts in place of the backing plate. This method would work for a 1302 OR 1303.

Method one only works on a 1303 as the 1302 strut cannot accommodate the 944 spindle...unless you swap out all of the early 3 bolt strut parts for the later two bolt parts (except for the upper strut mount....you should still keep the early mount on an early suspension car).

I would say the Porsche parts are more stout (bearings, et al), and less must be modified to use them, but I DETEST having to order the ball joints for a single company in Germany, even though that's what I did. Ultimately, I think using Porsche parts is the less expensive way to go. Unless you did my method... If I could do it again, I would buy the vented rotor and caliper kit from CSP that uses a caliper with 42mm pistons.

H2OSB


It sounds like it may be a smarter idea to use this kit for the front
https://www.csp-shop.com/en/wheels-brakes/conversi...5861a.html
and then do the rears myself. I have been reading and it sounds like they do require some minor tweaking and tinkering to do the front, as well as adding some camber.

Im assuming I now would need to use a space to get the right fitment of a 17x7 et 55 wheel under a stock fender. is this correct?

Also should i still use the 1303 spindle or switch to a 1302?


If you use the CSP kit (or Kerscher) you can use either spindle, and you can purchase a very good pair of caliper adapters from Topline and save a good deal of money. Don't switch out the suspension unless you need to. Less complicated that way (though it's not too complicated). The CSP/Kerscher kits add 5mm to the TRACK width, not camber. This means the whole affair goes sideways out by 5mm per side. I don't think that will effect the wheels you use, but I'm not certain of that.

H2OSB


Last edited by H2OSB on Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:14 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:14 am    Post subject: Re: 944 NA brake conversion. 1302 or 1303 suspension Reply with quote

Ive never actually taken a dual circuit MC apart. Why does the smaller circuit not have increased pressure over the larger one? Also, how does the needed breaking balance change with weight? I would imagine with more weight in the rear a different balance than stock would be needed, but would yuo want more or less bias?

@OP, if you havent yet, read lanner's wheel fitment guide. He has good info there on how to shove 18x7s on bugs
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:49 pm    Post subject: Re: 944 NA brake conversion. 1302 or 1303 suspension Reply with quote

Here are a few pics of the 1303 lower arm and 80's Passat ball joint. Please note that the ball joint is not the correct one, there are two versions. I ordered the part for cars with power steering, and the ball joint is offset. For cars without power steering, the ball joint is straight. I will order the correct ball joints in the following weeks. But you can get the idea of it. The ball joint support needs a bit of trimming to fit on the beetle oower arm, and the original ball joint holder (where it is pressed in) needs to be cut down. It work on the Luftwaffe, it shall work on my Cipica too.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:30 pm    Post subject: Re: 944 NA brake conversion. 1302 or 1303 suspension Reply with quote

Lol, oddly enough, I'm doing EXACTLY the same thing, as we speak, with a 1980 VW Dasher (Passat 1 in Europe) BJ on a 1303 LCA. What are you going to trim to make it fit? Btw, your BJ is from a early 80s Audi 4000/VW Quantum (not sure if that's a Passat 2 in Europe).

Your current BJ might not be a bad choice. With the offset head, you would get additional caster. I would love to see additional pics of the Luftwaffe LCA. I wrote to Mikes-boxerservice but have received no response.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:02 am    Post subject: Re: 944 NA brake conversion. 1302 or 1303 suspension Reply with quote

Yes, Passat 1 ball joints were what i was looking for. I did not k ow of the difference until I received the wrong ones (two left ball joints). They were still used in the 80s, at least on non power steering cars. Unfortunately there are not very clear pics of the Luftwaffe setup, but Mike responds. Maybe he has other pics. I think the ball joints need to be trimmed on the sides a bit to fit on the bug control arm between the gussets, and the furthest hole area needs to be cut, otherwise the ball joint will stick out too much. I am interested how you do it, too. It will take me some time until I get to work on mine.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:31 pm    Post subject: Re: 944 NA brake conversion. 1302 or 1303 suspension Reply with quote

What does this have to do with Performance/Engines/Transmissions?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:15 pm    Post subject: Re: 944 NA brake conversion. 1302 or 1303 suspension Reply with quote

Performance.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:22 pm    Post subject: Re: 944 NA brake conversion. 1302 or 1303 suspension Reply with quote

vilihardrada wrote:
Performance.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:33 am    Post subject: Re: 944 NA brake conversion. 1302 or 1303 suspension Reply with quote

The 944 stuff works great. I have been running it on front and rear of my Champcar 73' Super. If you search enough, you can find all the 944 parts pretty cheap. Even the Chinese rotors on Ebay aren't bad for the money.

I'm also running the 20.6mm master, and a residual valve on the rears.
The most expensive part on my whole brake system is the Hawk pads costing $135/set. Blue fronts, Black rears. They grip so well I have to keep reminding my drivers not to lock up the brakes and flat spot the tires while racing.

When running at Sebring we slow down from 104mph to 35mph at turn 7 in about 400 feet.
I just converted it to the Audi balljoints, late track arms, and 944 spindles. So far. so good.
I Love the 944 brakes!
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:03 am    Post subject: Re: 944 NA brake conversion. 1302 or 1303 suspension Reply with quote

jbbugs wrote:
The 944 stuff works great. I have been running it on front and rear of my Champcar 73' Super. If you search enough, you can find all the 944 parts pretty cheap. Even the Chinese rotors on Ebay aren't bad for the money.

I'm also running the 20.6mm master, and a residual valve on the rears.
The most expensive part on my whole brake system is the Hawk pads costing $135/set. Blue fronts, Black rears. They grip so well I have to keep reminding my drivers not to lock up the brakes and flat spot the tires while racing.

When running at Sebring we slow down from 104mph to 35mph at turn 7 in about 400 feet.
I just converted it to the Audi balljoints, late track arms, and 944 spindles. So far. so good.
I Love the 944 brakes!
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I would love more info about your car. If you didn't gather from previous posts, my '74 Super is destined to be an autocross car (not exclusively).

On my '73, I have 944 torsion bars for the rear, while the front has coil overs made from a Raceland kit meant for a VW Caddy, but with 120# springs.

Brakes are disc kits, f & r from CB Performance. Using stock MC, but considering a 914 17mm because I'm not fond of the rock hard pedal (although modulation is good)

For my '74 I have a set of 26mm torsion bars (aftermarket 924 upgrade) because I'm installing a slightly heavier T4 engine. For the front, I have coil overs made from 944 strut housings with a Ground Control coil over kit, also with 120# springs.

I did this because I had coil overs made from Rabbit GTI housings but it sat too low in conjunction with my 944 spindles. With the 944 housings, I had a spacer made to sit down inside so I can still use Koni Rabbit inserts. 944 struts are IDENTICAL to VW 1303 struts except for the slotted top hole, allowing for camber adjustment. 1303 housings are 1.25 inches taller than Rabbit housings, so I took 1.25 inches away from my lowering, but it's still about 1 3/4 inch lower than stock (with 944 spindles). I used Kerscher ball joints so I could install the spindles, but only VERY recently learned about Passat/Audi ball joints. Would really like to see what was needed to fit the Passat/Audi BJs (they obviously need trimming and re-drilling to fit) so I'm not required to rely on a company out of country for replacement, not to mention the excessive cost.

Using 944 spindles and rotors, but I cut the rotors down by 25mm in O.D. which allowed 914 calipers to bolt to the spindle, once I added a spacers from 911 rear M calipers. Rear brakes are straight n/a 944 with tubes and swans from Vdub Engineering so I can use the stock Beetle park brake cable.

Trying to build a legit handler.
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