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scottyrocks
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Joined: August 19, 2016
Posts: 2661
Location: Long Island, NY
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 Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: hesitation and now no start |
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Looks great, thank you.^
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12848
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: hesitation and now no start |
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What fuel pump are you using? How old is it?
I just had to clean out my carb for the third time in 100 miles due to a fuel pump that was packed full of crap & was sending it downstream.
This what came out of the pump after a full cleaning just 40 miles previously.
And this is what the inside of the pump looked like...
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scottyrocks
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Joined: August 19, 2016
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Location: Long Island, NY
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:48 am Post subject: Re: hesitation and now no start |
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I haven't taken apart the fuel pump but am getting fuel up to the carb. Taking it apart will be next, especially if I can't start the car today. The pressure vacuum kit shown above is on order.
| mukluk wrote: |
| For carb rebuild kits I've had decent luck with Echlin brand, usually available at Napa Auto. |
Turns out that the rebuild kit I got from NAPA is indeed an Echlin.
I replaced the float needle valve (FNV) yesterday.
I noticed that the the FNV is not exactly the same as the one that came out of the carb. The new one is longer, but comes with two shims to bring the valve to the correct position. I installed it with the two shims and the new rubber soft washer/gasket (sorry, don't know what it is actually called. It's sort of reddish in color).
The new FNV seems to be sitting in exactly the same place as the old one, but the car is not showing any signs of starting at all. It is cranking, but that's it.
Is there something I am missing that I don't see regarding the FNV?
I manually put some fuel into the float bowl via the opening for the tube from the fuel pump.
I tried with no gas pedal, with some gas pedal, and with the choke both on and off. Nothing.
I am about to pull a plug to see if it is fouled beyond use due to the backfiring from the last time I drove it (last weekend) when I discovered fuel leaking from the lower throttle shaft housing (see photo a few posts up).
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“If you care for a thing long enough, it takes on a life of its own, doesn't it? Mending old things, preserving them, looking after them – on some level there's no rational grounds for it.”
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scottyrocks
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Joined: August 19, 2016
Posts: 2661
Location: Long Island, NY
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:45 am Post subject: Re: hesitation and now no start |
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| TDCTDI wrote: |
What fuel pump are you using? How old is it?
I just had to clean out my carb for the third time in 100 miles due to a fuel pump that was packed full of crap & was sending it downstream.
This what came out of the pump after a full cleaning just 40 miles previously.
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Here is my fuel pump:
Apparently it is not original, as it is Brazilian. I don't know old it is, or if or when it was ever serviced. It was in the car, and working, when I got it 3 years ago.
I was just looking through some fuel pump threads. I am not going to open it up until I have done at least three things: 1) measure the pressure when I get the gauge referenced above, 2) build one of those jigs so as to get the diaphragm in with the correct 14mm preload, and 3) get a rebuild kit from WW.
I'm not sure I'm going to be able to get a pressure reading if the car won't start, though.
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“If you care for a thing long enough, it takes on a life of its own, doesn't it? Mending old things, preserving them, looking after them – on some level there's no rational grounds for it.”
– D. Tartt, 'The Goldfinch' |
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scottyrocks
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2016
Posts: 2661
Location: Long Island, NY
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: hesitation and now no start |
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| scottyrocks wrote: |
I replaced the float needle valve (FNV) yesterday.
I noticed that the the FNV is not exactly the same as the one that came out of the carb. The new one is longer, but comes with two shims to bring the valve to the correct position. I installed it with the two shims and the new rubber soft washer/gasket (sorry, don't know what it is actually called. It's sort of reddish in color).
The new FNV seems to be sitting in exactly the same place as the old one, but the car is not showing any signs of starting at all. It is cranking, but that's it.
Is there something I am missing that I don't see regarding the FNV? |
I now realize that I've made some assumptions here that need more precise checking into.
I am looking at Rob and Dave's float needle page, and how to adjust to get the correct float height, but some things are not clear to me.
(I am more familiar with Keihin carbs, used on older Japanese motorcycles, and how to set float height. The Solex carbs used on our cars are not adjusted the same way.)
My carb will be on the bench when I measure and adjust it (if needed).
Rob and Dave wrote:
| Quote: |
A problem can occur if the thickness of the washer under the float needle valve is incorrect, which in turn will make the fuel level in the carburetor float bowl incorrect. The fuel level effects the fuel level on the emulsion tube. The emulson tube works with the air bypass jet and seems to effect the rate of fuel vaporization. This means that the level of the fuel in the carburetor bowl is critical.
If the fuel level is a little low in the bowl (washer too thick), then facing downhill and cornering will cause the engine to run lean, causing stalling. Facing uphill the mixture would be a little richer - closer to normal. If the main jet in the carburetor is a little lean, that would make any bad fuel mixture settings even worse.
Following is a procedure for correctly setting the level of fuel in the carburetor bowl -
Position the car on a level surface (or, if the carburetor is removed from the car, place it so that it is level.
If the carburetor is installed, idle the engine briefly to ensure that the float bowl is full.
If the carburetor is not installed, fill the float bowl using a piece of hose attached to the fuel inlet pipe.
Remove the carburetor upper part and the gasket so that the fuel level can be measured.
The distance from the top of the carburetor body to the surface of the fuel should be 19.5mm +/- 1.0mm. |
Okay, I am good up to here.
| Quote: |
If the fuel level is too high, use a thicker washer under the float valve.
If the fuel level is too low, use a thinner washer. |
On a Keihin carb, there is a tab to bend that will change the height of the float so that it depresses the float needle valve at the right fuel height.
But on the Solex, it looks like the height is supposed to be 19.5mm from the top of the carb body to the surface of the fuel, but may be off, and getting the correct float height is dependent on washers to move the float needle valve up or down. Is this correct?
And even if the height is 19.5mm correct, my putting two washers on the float needle valve may be causing the valve to close when the fuel level is too low, thus not allowing the fuel to reach where it needs to go for the car to run or even start.
I automatically put the two brass washers on to the carb when I replaced the float needle valve yesterday, effectively shutting off the fuel sooner. Is this correct? If so, then the fuel in the bowl is too low to maybe prevent the car from starting, as the fuel cannot reach where it needs to go? Is that correct? If so, I will need to remove at least one of those washers to bring the float valve up, allowing the float to rise more, resulting in a higher level in the bowl, so the fuel can reach where it needs to go. Yes?
It also appears that since there is no way to adjust the height of the float itself, and are moving the float needle up or down, when I measure the float height, and then most likely removing a washer, there will be no way to test the correctness until the carb is back in the car. If it starts and runs properly I have the float needle valve, and therefore the float, in the correct spot. Seems kind of an imprecise way to do it.
Then again, the float needle valve I got in the rebuild kit is not identical to the one that was in the carb. That variable creates guesswork.
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“If you care for a thing long enough, it takes on a life of its own, doesn't it? Mending old things, preserving them, looking after them – on some level there's no rational grounds for it.”
– D. Tartt, 'The Goldfinch'
Last edited by scottyrocks on Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mukluk
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Joined: October 18, 2012
Posts: 7023
Location: Clyde, TX
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:06 pm Post subject: Re: hesitation and now no start |
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| scottyrocks wrote: |
Turns out that the rebuild kit I got from NAPA is indeed an Echlin.
I replaced the float needle valve (FNV) yesterday.
I noticed that the the FNV is not exactly the same as the one that came out of the carb. The new one is longer, but comes with two shims to bring the valve to the correct position. I installed it with the two shims and the new rubber soft washer/gasket (sorry, don't know what it is actually called. It's sort of reddish in color).
The new FNV seems to be sitting in exactly the same place as the old one, but the car is not showing any signs of starting at all. It is cranking, but that's it.
Is there something I am missing that I don't see regarding the FNV?
I manually put some fuel into the float bowl via the opening for the tube from the fuel pump.
I tried with no gas pedal, with some gas pedal, and with the choke both on and off. Nothing.
I am about to pull a plug to see if it is fouled beyond use due to the backfiring from the last time I drove it (last weekend) when I discovered fuel leaking from the lower throttle shaft housing (see photo a few posts up). |
The reddish fiber washer is the seal for the carb float bowl plug, the FNV uses one or both of the shim washers to seal to the carb top and set the float height. One shim will be 0.5mm and the other is 1.0mm -- using just one or the pair will allow you to set the FNV at half, one, or one and a half millimeter to adjust your float height, the 28PICT should normally use the 1.0mm washer/shim if I recall correctly.
If you're not getting fuel into the float bowl, make sure the fuel pump is actually pumping fuel to the carb and that the inlet tube and FNV don't have crud inside blocking them. If you are getting fuel to the carb but the car won't start, check for a gummed up idle jet and verify you're getting spark at the plugs.
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1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga"
Last edited by mukluk on Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mukluk
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Joined: October 18, 2012
Posts: 7023
Location: Clyde, TX
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: hesitation and now no start |
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| scottyrocks wrote: |
Here is my fuel pump:
I was just looking through some fuel pump threads. I am not going to open it up until I have done at least three things: 1) measure the pressure when I get the gauge referenced above, 2) build one of those jigs so as to get the diaphragm in with the correct 14mm preload, and 3) get a rebuild kit from WW. |
That style of fuel pump is not rebuildable as the body parts are crimped together.
| scottyrocks wrote: |
I'm not sure I'm going to be able to get a pressure reading if the car won't start, though. |
The pump output pressure can be checked by just cranking the engine with a good battery if need be, though a reading with the engine running is preferred.
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scottyrocks
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Joined: August 19, 2016
Posts: 2661
Location: Long Island, NY
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: hesitation and now no start |
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| mukluk wrote: |
| scottyrocks wrote: |
Turns out that the rebuild kit I got from NAPA is indeed an Echlin.
I replaced the float needle valve (FNV) yesterday.
I noticed that the the FNV is not exactly the same as the one that came out of the carb. The new one is longer, but comes with two shims to bring the valve to the correct position. I installed it with the two shims and the new rubber soft washer/gasket (sorry, don't know what it is actually called. It's sort of reddish in color).
The new FNV seems to be sitting in exactly the same place as the old one, but the car is not showing any signs of starting at all. It is cranking, but that's it.
Is there something I am missing that I don't see regarding the FNV?
I manually put some fuel into the float bowl via the opening for the tube from the fuel pump.
I tried with no gas pedal, with some gas pedal, and with the choke both on and off. Nothing.
I am about to pull a plug to see if it is fouled beyond use due to the backfiring from the last time I drove it (last weekend) when I discovered fuel leaking from the lower throttle shaft housing (see photo a few posts up). |
The reddish fiber washer is the seal for the carb float bowl plug, the FNV uses one or both of the shim washers to seal to the carb top and set the float height. One shim will be 0.5mm and the other is 1.0mm -- using just one or the pair will allow you to set the FNV at half, one, or one and a half millimeter to adjust your float height, the 29PICT should normally use the 1.0mm washer/shim if I recall correctly.
If you're not getting fuel into the float bowl, make sure the fuel pump is actually pumping fuel to the carb and that the inlet tube and FNV don't have crud inside blocking them. If you are getting fuel to the carb but the car won't start, check for a gummed up idle jet and verify you're getting spark at the plugs. |
Okay, thanks. I've got both washers in there, most likely effectively not allowing the fuel level to rise enough to even start the car.
Next step to is to remove the shims, measure them, and reinstall the 1mm shim only.
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“If you care for a thing long enough, it takes on a life of its own, doesn't it? Mending old things, preserving them, looking after them – on some level there's no rational grounds for it.”
– D. Tartt, 'The Goldfinch' |
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scottyrocks
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Location: Long Island, NY
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: hesitation and now no start |
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| mukluk wrote: |
That style of fuel pump is not rebuildable as the body parts are crimped together. |
So that means I can't reseal it if I open it to check for debris, as TDCTDI had done.
Lovely. I guess I'll be looking in the classifieds for an OEM German fuel pump and then get the kit from WW. But I'm getting adhead of myself regarding a rebuild. I have to adjust the float needle height and see if the car starts.
| scottyrocks wrote: |
I'm not sure I'm going to be able to get a pressure reading if the car won't start, though. |
| mukluk wrote: |
| The pump output pressure can be checked by just cranking the engine with a good battery if need be, though a reading with the engine running is preferred. |
I'm going to remove a washer from the float needle valve, as mentioned above, as this now seems the most likely culprit as to why my engine is not starting. I put two of them on the valve when one was probably enough, if not too much. If the engine starts and runs, I will test the pressure when I get the gauge.
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“If you care for a thing long enough, it takes on a life of its own, doesn't it? Mending old things, preserving them, looking after them – on some level there's no rational grounds for it.”
– D. Tartt, 'The Goldfinch' |
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mukluk
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Joined: October 18, 2012
Posts: 7023
Location: Clyde, TX
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:22 pm Post subject: Re: hesitation and now no start |
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| scottyrocks wrote: |
I'm going to remove a washer from the float needle valve, as mentioned above, as this now seems the most likely culprit as to why my engine is not starting. I put two of them on the valve when one was probably enough, if not too much. If the engine starts and runs, I will test the pressure when I get the gauge. |
If it still doesn't start after sorting the washer situation, try a shot of starting fluid down the carb throat to see if it tries to run briefly. That would help determine if you're having a fuel delivery problem or an ignition problem causing the no start.
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1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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scottyrocks
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Joined: August 19, 2016
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Location: Long Island, NY
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: hesitation and now no start |
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I removed the thinner washer, leaving the thicker one, put it all back together and reinstalled it in the car (I can do this in my sleep now).
Still no start. Cranked it numerous times for about 10 seconds each time. Nottingk.
I had mentioned I was going to check the plugs. They were various shades of black so I cleaned them with my favorite all-purpose cleaner, reinstalled, and bingo, it started.
It would not pull clean off idle, but I decided to take a test drive. I didn't get 100 feet before the car bogged down and started missing. Turned around and pulled back into the garage.
It's getting fuel. It's not dying as if it's running out of gas. I have experienced this on motorcycles, and once with this car when I, well, ran out of gas. That's always slight brief loss of power followed by an immediate stall. This is an intermittent miss, and now no power at all when it's not missing. It feels like a rich jetting condition but I had changed nothing just prior to the beginning of the problem in early July.
The only thing I did change, way before this problem began, was the distributor. The car came with an 009. I bought a refurbed 4R5 'big-cap' from Glenn and installed it. The car ran great for about a year this way.
The only reason I mention this is because I think I read somewhere that the use of a 009 sometimes(?) benefits from a richer main jet. I don't know if I have a richer jet in there. I never looked because everything was fine for a year. And even if there is a richer jet in there, can it be at least part of the cause of my current problem? It seems unlikely that things would go south suddenly from a less than optimal part that has been there for a year.
At any rate, what is the standard main jet size for a '63 Beetle with a Solex 28 PICT-1 carb? I'm sure I can get one from WW or JBugs or some such if I can determine if I have a too-rich jet in there now.
Or am I barking up a completely wrong tree?
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“If you care for a thing long enough, it takes on a life of its own, doesn't it? Mending old things, preserving them, looking after them – on some level there's no rational grounds for it.”
– D. Tartt, 'The Goldfinch' |
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mukluk
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Joined: October 18, 2012
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Location: Clyde, TX
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: hesitation and now no start |
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Unless somebody snuck in your garage and swapped out the main jet without you knowing, I don't see how the jet would be the cause since it ran fine for a year.
I'd stick with the plan of checking the fuel pressure to make sure it's not excessive, and broaden the scope to include the ignition side of things if you can't find anything definitive. I know from personal experience that having the wire from the points to condenser too close to the vacuum advance link can cause the car to lack power and act like a fuel starvation problem.
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1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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scottyrocks
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Joined: August 19, 2016
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Location: Long Island, NY
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: hesitation and now no start |
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Yes, and I was just reading that backfiring is a symptom of a lean condition, not a rich condition.
I know that the vacuum advance is on the distributor, but where/what is the link?
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“If you care for a thing long enough, it takes on a life of its own, doesn't it? Mending old things, preserving them, looking after them – on some level there's no rational grounds for it.”
– D. Tartt, 'The Goldfinch'
Last edited by scottyrocks on Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dangermouse
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Location: Beautiful New Zealand
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: hesitation and now no start |
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| scottyrocks wrote: |
At any rate, what is the standard main jet size for a '63 Beetle with a Solex 28 PICT-1 carb? I'm sure I can get one from WW or JBugs or some such if I can determine if I have a too-rich jet in there now.
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Pretty sure that'd be 122.5; easily checked. Going through something similar myself and following your thread closely to see what the problem turns out to be 
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mukluk
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Joined: October 18, 2012
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Location: Clyde, TX
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: hesitation and now no start |
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The link is the metal bar that connects the advance diaphragm to the points plate. How I found that problem on mine was to manually operate the advance on the distributor with the cap and rotor removed -- I saw that the points to condenser wire contacted the vacuum can link (or arm if you prefer) as the points plate rotated.
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1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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scottyrocks
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Joined: August 19, 2016
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Location: Long Island, NY
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: hesitation and now no start |
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| mukluk wrote: |
| The link is the metal bar that connects the advance diaphragm to the points plate. How I found that problem on mine was to manually operate the advance on the distributor with the cap and rotor removed -- I saw that the points to condenser wire contacted the vacuum can link (or arm if you prefer) as the points plate rotated. |
I'm going to have to look at this, as I had no idea they could affect each other.
To Dangermouse, I am where the car is only on weekends, so next Saturday is the earliest I will be able to report back here on any progress.
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“If you care for a thing long enough, it takes on a life of its own, doesn't it? Mending old things, preserving them, looking after them – on some level there's no rational grounds for it.”
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scottyrocks
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Location: Long Island, NY
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: hesitation and now no start |
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Today I took the carb apart again and recleaned everything I could remove and repositioned the fuel pump spray arm.
The car won't start again.
One thing I forgot to do was shake the carb and listen for the accelerator pump balls moving around. I also want to remove the accelerator pump cover and check the diaphragm. Tomorrow.
mukluk mentioned the two wires in the distributor (condenser and coil) should not be touching each other as that will cause running problems. Both wires are connected to the same bolt so I don't see how they couldn't touch each other, at least through the bolt. Does anyone have any clarity on this?
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“If you care for a thing long enough, it takes on a life of its own, doesn't it? Mending old things, preserving them, looking after them – on some level there's no rational grounds for it.”
– D. Tartt, 'The Goldfinch' |
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scottyrocks
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: hesitation and now no start |
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I've been researching this carburetor and found new (to me) info that is extremely helpful.
I now need to locate a tail light screw from a '68 or newer Beetle so I can remove the plug for one of the accel pump check balls.
If anyone has one they are willing to toss into an envelope and send me, that would be great. I can send $$ via paypal.
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“If you care for a thing long enough, it takes on a life of its own, doesn't it? Mending old things, preserving them, looking after them – on some level there's no rational grounds for it.”
– D. Tartt, 'The Goldfinch' |
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Pruneman99
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: hesitation and now no start |
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Maybe I missed it with all this talk about fuel pumps and carburators, but did you check if the pump was delivering fuel?
Did you try dribbling a cap full of gas into the carb throat and try to start the car?
Even a FUBAR carb will usually allow a car to start, even if it stalls or runs like a bag o' hammers. |
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Pruneman99
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:53 pm Post subject: Re: hesitation and now no start |
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| I just went back and looked at your pictures. The distributor isn't seated. At least that's what it looks like. Pop the cap off the distributor and try turning the rotor by hand. If it turns, the distributor is not seated, and the rotor isn't turning when your trying to start the car. |
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