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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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 Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:50 am Post subject: Re: New 411 owner |
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| scirocco81 wrote: |
Well it looks like reman calipers aren't available from anyone so I ordered the rebuild kits and I will try to track down 4 pistons. Ordered 2, but want to see what happens after those ship I have a sneaking suspicion a lot of sites are showing the same pair in stock since they list them as "2 remaining".
Ray I looked over your caliper thread, will read it over again when I start this. Have never rebuilt a caliper before, so it will be interesting! |
Unless your pistons are just wrecked.....you will probably not need new caliper pistons.
But....if by chance you do.....check with Centric directly.
Centric made them at one time. It does not mean they still do.....but if anyone can tell you they can.
14642001 is the part number that Rockauto lists....as Im sure you know...  ....as for sure...everyone either lists out of stock or two remaining.
One piece of useful news regarding odd or rare parts. If Summit racing lists a part....say like these brake caliper pistons or...in my recent case....some hard to get pinion shaft bearings.....and shortly after ordering you get a "back order" notice......give them a chance.
I have played the rare pinion bearing game with maybe 6 vendors over 2.5 years. Most will take your money....and a month later.....no bearings and a refund.
I played that once last year with Summit. And figured they were like the rest......just hot air. Got on the phone with them to complain....and had a chat. They assured me that they had a direct line to Timken....and that the bearings are available but only on demand.....and they do not list anything they cannot get.
So near the end of July I purchased the bearings again.....price was excellent. And.....11 weeks later....two brand new Timken pinion bearings arrived!
Summit notes that in the cases of some rare and seldom purchased parts....they will never have them on the shelf....but will not list them if they cannot get them.
Just wanted to relay that.
You may call PMB directly and ask if they can get pistons. At one time they had a source. Ray |
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scirocco81
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Joined: December 29, 2006
Posts: 142
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: New 411 owner |
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I bought the 2 146.42001 pistons off Rock auto last night, they shipped today.
Now, many of the sites are showing them as sold out.
I do have a concern however, my car was built 2-72.
The 146.42001 is listed as from 8-72 and the 146.42004 to 7/72.
So did I just buy pistons I cant use? |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: New 411 owner |
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| scirocco81 wrote: |
I bought the 2 146.42001 pistons off Rock auto last night, they shipped today.
Now, many of the sites are showing them as sold out.
I do have a concern however, my car was built 2-72.
The 146.42001 is listed as from 8-72 and the 146.42004 to 7/72.
So did I just buy pistons I cant use? |
Did you buy 4 or 2?
According to the book....early and late are both 42mm. The only small differences....if there are any....will be the fit of the outer seal/boot fit around the piston.
From looking at the pictures on the PMB site....the late model....8-72 on....has a smaller ID for snapping around the piston than the early seal.
The piston diameter is the same. The inner bore seal is the same on both. So if you need pistons.....then simply send the seal kit back to PMB before opening so you can get the early seal kit to fit the new pistons.
If you only bought 2 pistons.....send one kit back.
If you bought from Rockauto....there is a high chance that you will get an e-mail saying no stock and order cancelled...so wait to do anything. Ray |
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scirocco81
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Joined: December 29, 2006
Posts: 142
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: New 411 owner |
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I bought 2 of the Early 70-72 kits off BMP, along with new bleeders.
Would I need the 73-76 to use these newer style pistons?
RockAuto has already sent me shipping and tracking numbers on the pistons I bought.
I think at this point its time to get the calipers off and see what condition the pistons are in. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: New 411 owner |
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| scirocco81 wrote: |
I bought 2 of the Early 70-72 kits off BMP, along with new bleeders.
Would I need the 73-76 to use these newer style pistons?
RockAuto has already sent me shipping and tracking numbers on the pistons I bought.
I think at this point its time to get the calipers off and see what condition the pistons are in. |
Yep....plenty of time. You may need different seal kits. I would wait and see. Ray |
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scirocco81
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Joined: December 29, 2006
Posts: 142
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: New 411 owner |
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Well, I took the brakes apart today. The rear wasnt that bad, I was able to free the adjusters up along with everything else, no broken bolts, no twisted brake lines, I am relieved. The rear will get new shoes and wheel cylinders, it appears the hardware kits are not available but I swear the brake shoe springs are the same as a Super Beetle front. I am going to buy a kit just to see.
The front went easily as well. Some penetrating oil and some heat but nothing stripped or broken, even the bleeders came out without a fuss.
I did notice some differences in the calipers. One is cast Ate 63, the other Ate 92. The caliper casting 63 came apart as expected, small dust boot with the retaining clip. The 92 had a larger hard dust boot. I would appreciate insight on the condition of the caliper pistons. I do not see any red flags if I read Rays rebuild thread correctly. I did talk to PMB and was told they may have some "reconditioned" pistons available.
Pistons, pair #1
Piston pair #2, from the caliper cast 92
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: New 411 owner |
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The casting number differences are not really important. Those are just mold numbers.
Take a picture of the side with the bleeder valves to compare for serious differences.
If all sides of your pistons look that good you have no issues. Take a picture of the bores and where the seal grooves are. Ray |
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scirocco81
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Joined: December 29, 2006
Posts: 142
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: New 411 owner |
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Thanks Ray, here are some pictures of the piston bores still some cleaning to do I think......
I got 1 of the later pistons from Rockauto, here is a comparison of that piston with an early in the bore.
Early piston
Late piston
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: New 411 owner |
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Your bores look just fine. Just smooth them a little with 800 grit.
The problem...looking at this now in your pictures...is not that you cannot use th new pistons in your bores with the new boots...but the pistons protrude too far and your brake pads will not fit.
You cannot use the newer pistons unless you have the thicker newer/later calipers...and those will not bolt up to your early steering knuckles or fit your early rotors.
If you need to get rid of the pistons I may be able to buy them from you.
Post some pictures of them outside of the bore. Ray |
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Jim Hunter
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Joined: February 14, 2014
Posts: 107
Location: MB, Slovenjia
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:50 am Post subject: Re: New 411 owner |
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This car is in very good condition for its age !
I am very glad that you decide to bring it back to its former glory!
Good luck,
Jim |
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scirocco81
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Joined: December 29, 2006
Posts: 142
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: New 411 owner |
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Thanks Jim! I dont know if it will ever be back to its formal glory, but the word needs every Type 4 on the road it can get and I am very happy to get this one back up and driving!
Calipers are done. My only area of concern are the half seals for some reason. Its just so odd to me that those are not machined surfaces. Now its just waiting on the rest of the brake parts to be delivered. Should all be here by the end of the week. Might be a couple of weeks before I get a chance to bolt it all back on.
Ray I watched a Youtube video of a guy rebuilding a set of early Porsche calipers, this is the assembly lube he recommend and used. Very easy to get online. Its a Castrol product, relabeled it appears used by Lucas.
And the finished product....
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: New 411 owner |
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| scirocco81 wrote: |
Thanks Jim! I dont know if it will ever be back to its formal glory, but the word needs every Type 4 on the road it can get and I am very happy to get this one back up and driving!
Calipers are done. My only area of concern are the half seals for some reason. Its just so odd to me that those are not machined surfaces. Now its just waiting on the rest of the brake parts to be delivered. Should all be here by the end of the week. Might be a couple of weeks before I get a chance to bolt it all back on.
Ray I watched a Youtube video of a guy rebuilding a set of early Porsche calipers, this is the assembly lube he recommend and used. Very easy to get online. Its a Castrol product, relabeled it appears used by Lucas.
And the finished product....
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NOOOOOOO!
That is NOT compatible with EPDM rubber!!!!!!
Note....that its spec sheets say its great for rubber and HYDRAULICS.
The rubber for hydraulic applications is totally,different than the EPDM of brake systems. Internal seals Hydraulic systems and external boots for brake and all others are made of nitrile or viton or even neoprene. That is fine for those.
EPDM rubber is barely marginal with vegetable oils an vegetable oil based lubes like that.
I would strip them and clean them and use a proper brake lube.
I listed several in my thread. Ray |
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scirocco81
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Joined: December 29, 2006
Posts: 142
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: New 411 owner |
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Ray, this grease is listed for use specifically in brake systems, caliper seals, and boots.
Fully compatible with natural and synthetic rubbers
Compatible with brake fluids and some hydraulic oils.
Rust inhibitor (protects from oxidation and rust).
RRG is water resistant.
Hight temperarure. The grease can be used in applications with temperatures up to 210-230F. It will not melt and will not contaminate brake pads.
Petrol resistant. Although it will get contaminated in contact with gasoline, but still it will protect rubber parts from it.
High chemical and structural(mechanical) stability.
High resistance against water washing (will stay on after a rain, or car wash).
Has high wear protecting
http://www.redrubbergrease.com/
In use on a Porsche 911 caliper rebuild.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt3huX8llsE&t=749s |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:07 pm Post subject: Re: New 411 owner |
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| scirocco81 wrote: |
Ray, this grease is listed for use specifically in brake systems, caliper seals, and boots.
Fully compatible with natural and synthetic rubbers
Compatible with brake fluids and some hydraulic oils.
Rust inhibitor (protects from oxidation and rust).
RRG is water resistant.
Hight temperarure. The grease can be used in applications with temperatures up to 210-230F. It will not melt and will not contaminate brake pads.
Petrol resistant. Although it will get contaminated in contact with gasoline, but still it will protect rubber parts from it.
High chemical and structural(mechanical) stability.
High resistance against water washing (will stay on after a rain, or car wash).
Has high wear protecting
http://www.redrubbergrease.com/
In use on a Porsche 911 caliper rebuild.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt3huX8llsE&t=749s |
Saying its compatible with "sybthetic rubbers" is saying nothing. Thats a very generic and imprecise term. The main groups of synthetic rubnera have VASTLY different chemical tolerances.
For instance.....you can use solvents, gasoline and virtually any hydrocarbon VOC on viton. In fact....its what the outer boots on your calipers are made of.
However....ANY VOC/hydtocarbon will EAT ....the EPDM rubber....INSIDE of your calipers, wheel cylinders and master cylinders.
Likewise......the EPDM insode your brake system....works great with silicones and glycol ether based products....and those will.... EAT Viton.
Just because someone posted on Youtube that they used it on a 911....means nothing.
And.....you can get awag with almost any lube.....many of which are not correct...for very short term on these rubber parts. As long as they are usex immediately and you bleed the hell out of them....zillions of people get away with it. This does not mean that it does not shorten the life.
And others fail...because they wait a while....and the cups and seals have time to soak in it.
Also understand....there is already another "inaccuracy" in that tech data sheet.
Saying it will not melt and contamimate the pads.....with a 210° to 230°...F....melt point is ludicrous. Brakes routinely see 400° to 500° F in normal usage.
Ray |
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scirocco81
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Joined: December 29, 2006
Posts: 142
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: New 411 owner |
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Only posted that video of a demonstration of it used for the purpose of caliper rebuilding, loads of info on the web of this grease being used for caliper rebuilds.
Some rebuild kits even come with a small packet
https://www.fastwrx.com/products/subaru-wrx-06-07-four-pot-two-pot-caliper-rebuild-kit
I have a sneaking suspicion that melting point should be in degrees C, not F which is about the same as the dry boiling point of DOT3 brake fluid. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:18 pm Post subject: Re: New 411 owner |
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This is the problem.
Read this tech data sheet. Its compatible with NATURAL RUBBER and SBR rubber.....neither of which are used in your brake system ....those are used with mineral oil along with EPR rubber.
And...by the way....that WRX site is not a factory site.
Its an OLD product.
https://www.castrol.com/en_au/australia/products/cars/greases/red-rubber-grease.html
The problem you cznnot get around is that vsgetable oils...are not good for EPDM. while not a flat out "fail" quickly....they are very poor.
They make the surfacs gummy...which tends to make the seals sticky and grabby.
The claim to fame for this grease is that it,does not contaminate the brake fluid....which is true......not that its ideal for EPDM.
Use what you want. All I can tell you is to install it asap and bleed it well. Ray |
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scirocco81
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Joined: December 29, 2006
Posts: 142
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: New 411 owner |
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Brakes installed today. I decided not to install the front rotors until spring, no point in putting new rotors on a car that will sit outside over the winter not being driven much.
Was not getting any fluid out of the rear, both hoses are collapsed. This cars not letting me get away with anything!
New rear hoses ordered, maybe Monday I will be able to drive it around the block!
I also changed the oil, filter, and gear oil. Once the brakes are on and bled, updates will come at a slower pace. I wanted to get the car running/driving ASAP so it can be moved around easily.
The plan is to have the car ready in the Spring. Still on the list to do......
New tires
Pushrod tube seals and VC gaskets
New exhaust
Go over the front end. Looks fairly solid, nothing obviously wrong minus the worn ball joints. Judging from the tires on it an alignment is needed badly. Will see how it steers when I drive it.
Free up the frunk release handle, need to do that ATF trick.
CLEAN THE INTERIOR!!!!!!!!!!
Track down a right rear quarter window glass or have one made.
Make sure all lights work, install halogen headlights.
Will update again Monday! |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: New 411 owner |
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| scirocco81 wrote: |
Brakes installed today. I decided not to install the front rotors until spring, no point in putting new rotors on a car that will sit outside over the winter not being driven much.
Was not getting any fluid out of the rear, both hoses are collapsed. This cars not letting me get away with anything!
New rear hoses ordered, maybe Monday I will be able to drive it around the block!
I also changed the oil, filter, and gear oil. Once the brakes are on and bled, updates will come at a slower pace. I wanted to get the car running/driving ASAP so it can be moved around easily.
The plan is to have the car ready in the Spring. Still on the list to do......
New tires
Pushrod tube seals and VC gaskets
New exhaust
Go over the front end. Looks fairly solid, nothing obviously wrong minus the worn ball joints. Judging from the tires on it an alignment is needed badly. Will see how it steers when I drive it.
Free up the frunk release handle, need to do that ATF trick.
CLEAN THE INTERIOR!!!!!!!!!!
Track down a right rear quarter window glass or have one made.
Make sure all lights work, install halogen headlights.
Will update again Monday! |
Great progress so far.
Are your ball joints "worn" or are the hootscjust trashed?
Ball joints are rare for this car. No longer made and have not been since the 80s. If they are just a little loose but no slack vertically....I can direct you to new boots.
Add the ball joint gaskets.....and install a grease fitting and they will last for decades....I should have details in that on my strut mod thread.
If you have tire wear that looks like alignment.....you have more tjat nerds to be replaced. In fact its rare to not have things that need replaced due to age even if the car has 0 miles.
The centerlink is shot 100% of the time and you can only tell when its removed. Check out my centerlink rebuild thread. You can rebuild it better than stock and get rid of the defective packimg materials for about $25 in parts, ome paint and some dremel tool work.
Or you can still find NOS ones for about $50-80....and they work fine....bit tjeu are 30k mile parts due to defective packing materials inside.
Always replace the idler arm bushing. The stock one was defective in material as well. This is why the super beetle.....which used the 411 idler bushing...eventually...smartly...went to a solid bronze bushing. Its also about the same price as the stock rubber bushing....and readily available.
These three parts...center link, idler bushing and ball joints....are co-dependent. If any of the three are worn out....the other two parts will wear out.
The other items that ALWAYS affect alignment....are control arm bushings slipping forward and making contact with the subframe....and the strut bushings being worn...and the radius arm centering rings being shot.
Ray |
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scirocco81
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Joined: December 29, 2006
Posts: 142
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: New 411 owner |
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Definitely have play in both. I can grab the bottom of the rotor, lift up and down and see the play in the ball joints. The right is worse off that the left. Both boots are fine. I saw your grease fitting mod and thought maybe it would firm up the left side.
Great tip on the Super Beetle idler shim, as soon as I read it "anti shimmy bushing" popped into my head! I assume I use one from the same year?
Looks like I have more reading up to do! I've got about 6 months to whittle the list down...... |
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scirocco81
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Joined: December 29, 2006
Posts: 142
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: New 411 owner |
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Well, the hoses are on and the brakes are bled but there is no pedal. I guess the Type 4 Gods are demanding another monetary sacrifice and the master cylinder will need to be replaced.
Just bought a reman Bendix unit that was on ebay, should have time late next week to swap it out.
Not a single piece of the braking system survived! 
OK, well the hard lines are still there! |
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