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SurfaceRust
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2016
Posts: 160
Location: Los Angeles
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 Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:27 pm Post subject: Noise? Transmission? |
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1987, 2.1L, 4 speed manual, unsure of actual miles
I'm working to figure out a noise my van is making and I'm starting to suspect the transmission.
It sounds like a scraping noise sort of
It stops when I push in the clutch or when the van is under a light load
As soon as I'm accelerating it starts.
It stops when I take a right turn.
It's not the CV joints... i already replaced those.
Any ideas?
I can try to get a video of it. |
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dhaavers
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 7754
Location: NE MN (tinyurl.com/dhaaverslocation)
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: Noise? Transmission? |
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Right rear brake backing plate?
<shrug>
- Dave
_________________
86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS> |
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kipkohl
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2012
Posts: 91
Location: Olympia, WA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:00 am Post subject: Re: Noise? Transmission? |
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| Chasing down a similar noise. Mine is passenger rear. Rubbing noise only under load and turning. No noise when coasting. Items replaced: wheel bearings, brakes, axles and cv's, transmission rebuild by Gary's transaxle in Kent, WA. Noise still present. Finally found a thread here about a similar problem that turned out to be an axle rubbing against the hub. I think the guy remedied it by pulling the axle away from the hub, scrunching the cv boot then tightening it on the axle so that the boot was keeping the axle from rubbing. (sorry I don't remember the title of the thread) I told my mechanics about that and they are investigating that. |
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benandmj
Samba Member
Joined: October 29, 2012
Posts: 550
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:46 am Post subject: Re: Noise? Transmission? |
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Check your motor mounts. Could be fan belt rubbing something if a mount is broken.
_________________
85 Westfalia Weekender
91 Syncro Westy |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:56 am Post subject: Re: Noise? Transmission? |
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Find a helper who can lean out the passenger window and listen for noise coming from the right rear brake/wheel.
Remove the engine cover to engine/trans sounds come into the van. Drive around and "make your sound happen" and listen again.
Hopefully it's NOT your transaxle, that's a few thousand dollars.
If the noise is from inside your trans, your transaxle lubricant will already be highly polluted by metal abrasives and you can check that by looking at what the magnet has captured (if you post pics). Change your transaxle lubricant "whether it needs it or not."
That will do two useful things. 1) Changing oil first of all, removes the bulk of the abrasives from your lubricant. If your transaxle is NOT dead (pray for this), then clean oil will extend the remaining life. 2) And secondly it MAY start the process of paying attention to this expensive and essential part of your drive-train. As your trans gets older and older, it soils its oil sooner and sooner, thus more frequent oil changes can milk more miles out of it by getting the increasing abrasives out before they cause (more) trouble. Oil is cheap compared to a rebuild. Just the labor to remove/replace the transaxle is $500. And THEN you have to find a rebuilder ($1500-$3000 more) With $500 you can buy about 25 gallons gear oil (25 changes) it's super-cheap in comparison. Ya gotta get the abrasives out before they ruin your trans.
Everyone with an old van should change transaxle oil annually. Don't assume that a rebuild makes it "like new." First of all, it does NOT, because 90% of the parts in a rebuilt trans are OLD. You still have to monitor the magnet. A rebuild can extend the life if the 90% of used parts had a lot of life remaining. If your magnet is always clean, you can extend your oil change interval (and plan long trips too!). If your magnet is covered with metal trash you need to change SOONER next time, don't let it get covered. On an old van the transaxle oil change should be considered as important as an engine oil change. It can cost as much as an engine rebuild.
Well there ya have it, the (almost) daily Samba shout-out that HOPES to reduce some of the transaxle pain that's coming (daily on the internets) to haunt MOST 30 year old vanagons. That day is coming, make no mistake. It always astounds me the number of Vanagon owners who think their transaxle needs no maintenance, while at the same time these same folks are s***ing bricks hoping their transaxle doesn't go out. Parts costs are rising, used transaxles almost gone (are they already gone?), the options are dwindling, and the big-engine crowd is chowing down the used transaxles like it's nobody's business. It's coming sooner if you are putting more than 90 HP thru that little old tranny with a Subaru/Zetec/or more. If you have a bigger engine you need to up your maintenance game for sure.
The good thing is, there is a fairly SIMPLE procedure that can be done to extend the life of a transaxle, and its becoming essential. It's called "proper maintenance" and has always been an essential part of operating any antique vehicle; that WILL pay off. It's fairly "easy" and low cost too. Stack the deck in your favor people!!
For those who are truly interested in Vanagon longevity,,,, ask your transaxle professional if it actually saves $$$ to put fresh new bearings in your trans BEFORE it makes noise.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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SurfaceRust
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2016
Posts: 160
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: Noise? Transmission? |
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| kipkohl wrote: |
| Chasing down a similar noise. Mine is passenger rear. Rubbing noise only under load and turning. No noise when coasting. Items replaced: wheel bearings, brakes, axles and cv's, transmission rebuild by Gary's transaxle in Kent, WA. Noise still present. Finally found a thread here about a similar problem that turned out to be an axle rubbing against the hub. I think the guy remedied it by pulling the axle away from the hub, scrunching the cv boot then tightening it on the axle so that the boot was keeping the axle from rubbing. (sorry I don't remember the title of the thread) I told my mechanics about that and they are investigating that. |
I’ll have to look at my wheels and hubs |
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SurfaceRust
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2016
Posts: 160
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: Noise? Transmission? |
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| Sodo wrote: |
Find a helper who can lean out the passenger window and listen for noise coming from the right rear brake/wheel.
Remove the engine cover to engine/trans sounds come into the van. Drive around and "make your sound happen" and listen again.
Hopefully it's NOT your transaxle, that's a few thousand dollars.
If the noise is from inside your trans, your transaxle lubricant will already be highly polluted by metal abrasives and you can check that by looking at what the magnet has captured (if you post pics). Change your transaxle lubricant "whether it needs it or not."
That will do two useful things. 1) Changing oil first of all, removes the bulk of the abrasives from your lubricant. If your transaxle is NOT dead (pray for this), then clean oil will extend the remaining life. 2) And secondly it MAY start the process of paying attention to this expensive and essential part of your drive-train. As your trans gets older and older, it soils its oil sooner and sooner, thus more frequent oil changes can milk more miles out of it by getting the increasing abrasives out before they cause (more) trouble. Oil is cheap compared to a rebuild. Just the labor to remove/replace the transaxle is $500. And THEN you have to find a rebuilder ($1500-$3000 more) With $500 you can buy about 25 gallons gear oil (25 changes) it's super-cheap in comparison. Ya gotta get the abrasives out before they ruin your trans.
Everyone with an old van should change transaxle oil annually. Don't assume that a rebuild makes it "like new." First of all, it does NOT, because 90% of the parts in a rebuilt trans are OLD. You still have to monitor the magnet. A rebuild can extend the life if the 90% of used parts had a lot of life remaining. If your magnet is always clean, you can extend your oil change interval (and plan long trips too!). If your magnet is covered with metal trash you need to change SOONER next time, don't let it get covered. On an old van the transaxle oil change should be considered as important as an engine oil change. It can cost as much as an engine rebuild.
Well there ya have it, the (almost) daily Samba shout-out that HOPES to reduce some of the transaxle pain that's coming (daily on the internets) to haunt MOST 30 year old vanagons. That day is coming, make no mistake. It always astounds me the number of Vanagon owners who think their transaxle needs no maintenance, while at the same time these same folks are s***ing bricks hoping their transaxle doesn't go out. Parts costs are rising, used transaxles almost gone (are they already gone?), the options are dwindling, and the big-engine crowd is chowing down the used transaxles like it's nobody's business. It's coming sooner if you are putting more than 90 HP thru that little old tranny with a Subaru/Zetec/or more. If you have a bigger engine you need to up your maintenance game for sure.
The good thing is, there is a fairly SIMPLE procedure that can be done to extend the life of a transaxle, and its becoming essential. It's called "proper maintenance" and has always been an essential part of operating any antique vehicle; that WILL pay off. It's fairly "easy" and low cost too. Stack the deck in your favor people!!
For those who are truly interested in Vanagon longevity,,,, ask your transaxle professional if it actually saves $$$ to put fresh new bearings in your trans BEFORE it makes noise. |
Haha awesome little rant. I’ll be changing my trans oil this weekend. I found a recently rebuilt motor and tranny on here for not a bad price. If it is the tranny I can replace it myself and hopefully not break the bank |
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Multiman mv
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2017
Posts: 987
Location: Martha's Vineyard, Ma
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: Noise? Transmission? |
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| Sodo wrote: |
Find a helper who can lean out the passenger window and listen for noise coming from the right rear brake/wheel.
Remove the engine cover to engine/trans sounds come into the van. Drive around and "make your sound happen" and listen again.
Hopefully it's NOT your transaxle, that's a few thousand dollars.
If the noise is from inside your trans, your transaxle lubricant will already be highly polluted by metal abrasives and you can check that by looking at what the magnet has captured (if you post pics). Change your transaxle lubricant "whether it needs it or not."
That will do two useful things. 1) Changing oil first of all, removes the bulk of the abrasives from your lubricant. If your transaxle is NOT dead (pray for this), then clean oil will extend the remaining life. 2) And secondly it MAY start the process of paying attention to this expensive and essential part of your drive-train. As your trans gets older and older, it soils its oil sooner and sooner, thus more frequent oil changes can milk more miles out of it by getting the increasing abrasives out before they cause (more) trouble. Oil is cheap compared to a rebuild. Just the labor to remove/replace the transaxle is $500. And THEN you have to find a rebuilder ($1500-$3000 more) With $500 you can buy about 25 gallons gear oil (25 changes) it's super-cheap in comparison. Ya gotta get the abrasives out before they ruin your trans.
Everyone with an old van should change transaxle oil annually. Don't assume that a rebuild makes it "like new." First of all, it does NOT, because 90% of the parts in a rebuilt trans are OLD. You still have to monitor the magnet. A rebuild can extend the life if the 90% of used parts had a lot of life remaining. If your magnet is always clean, you can extend your oil change interval (and plan long trips too!). If your magnet is covered with metal trash you need to change SOONER next time, don't let it get covered. On an old van the transaxle oil change should be considered as important as an engine oil change. It can cost as much as an engine rebuild.
Well there ya have it, the (almost) daily Samba shout-out that HOPES to reduce some of the transaxle pain that's coming (daily on the internets) to haunt MOST 30 year old vanagons. That day is coming, make no mistake. It always astounds me the number of Vanagon owners who think their transaxle needs no maintenance, while at the same time these same folks are s***ing bricks hoping their transaxle doesn't go out. Parts costs are rising, used transaxles almost gone (are they already gone?), the options are dwindling, and the big-engine crowd is chowing down the used transaxles like it's nobody's business. It's coming sooner if you are putting more than 90 HP thru that little old tranny with a Subaru/Zetec/or more. If you have a bigger engine you need to up your maintenance game for sure.
The good thing is, there is a fairly SIMPLE procedure that can be done to extend the life of a transaxle, and its becoming essential. It's called "proper maintenance" and has always been an essential part of operating any antique vehicle; that WILL pay off. It's fairly "easy" and low cost too. Stack the deck in your favor people!!
For those who are truly interested in Vanagon longevity,,,, ask your transaxle professional if it actually saves $$$ to put fresh new bearings in your trans BEFORE it makes noise. |
Some of the best advice written in regards to the Vanagon transaxle. I recently had someone argue against this same suggestion that I made in another thread (to lessen the interval between transmission fluid changes.) For those who don’t listen to this sage advice, as you said, some day they will infortunately pay. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50337
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: Noise? Transmission? |
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| Bad engine mounts that let the engine or tranny make metal to metal contact with the body or frame would do this. |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: Noise? Transmission? |
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Vanagon transaxle and engine mounting is a big triangle. Wouldn't the mounts have to be REAL bad to cause problems? Do Vanagon engine mounts ever develop problems? Not sure if that's a likely problem to chase for this. Most likely is brake drum I think or wheel bearings?. Then comes transaxle, cuz they're 30 years old and mostly go un-maintained.
| Sodo wrote: |
| It always astounds me the number of Vanagon owners who think their transaxle needs no maintenance |
ooops a clarification....it did not "always" astound me. It's been astounding me only in recent years. 10 years ago I was "way friggin' busy" with other things and the cleanliness of my transaxle lubricant was the LAST thing on my mind. But I did keep my engine oil properly maintained. And I thought about gearbox cleanliness, but did not actually change it.
Perhaps because the general concensus was "transmissions don't really need clean lubricant like an engine does." Even though the contact forces are thousands of times higher than in the engine. Think about it. The transaxles lasted because they were well-made, and "new." Well, now they're old. If they were maintained better when they were "new" we'd have much better transaxles to work with now. But we don't.
It astounds me NOW, due to more recent discoveries studying machinery lubrication and contamination. I did not discover these gearbox secrets, I only discovered their existence by listening to some other inquisitive folks who googled, and I got interested and googled some more. One problem is the research papers require a scientific and engineering level of comprehension.
And often they skip past discussion of the importance of cleanliness, assuming their learned readers have already ensured lubricant cleanliness for their expensive and rare precision componentry, and are looking for the next level of assistance. Which most regular folks don't, most folks think contamination is no big deal for an auto transmission, so they're stuck at square one, destroying their transaxle at the bottom of the pyramid. The main source of information available to the layman is blaring "commercial advertising" where various brands jostle for the marketplace top dollar. So there ya have it.
Oil brand debates go on and on and on (60 pages) with folks saying "160k miles and the (original?) oil was horrible" to "27k miles and no problems yet" and "I'll drain it and never use that stuff again" etc. ALL candid observations that are incidentally USELESS for anyone to employ in planning THEIR best maintenance. With an almost conspicuous omittal of the single biggest contributor to gearbox wear (degradation and self-contamination of the lubricant). So many painful and costly problems that could have been precluded SO simply by a periodic cost of $10-20 to dump the old and replace with clean.
Which seems really really so friggin' OBVIOUS now. But still it doesn't appear in any oil discussions. Only Sodo posts this (pretty much) and a few folks acknowledging as of late. It ain't Sodo, folks, it's OBVIOUS.....so writes Sodo of his favorite opinion.
All I ever see is a drainplug pic PROVING that the gearbox's NUMBER ONE, most important (BAR NONE ! ) component, it's lubricant was not maintained at all. NOTHING. Not even looked at, until the trans started making some noise. And this beacon of non-maintenance (the hairy magnet) is then compared to other beacons of non-maintenance and proclaimed to be"normal". Which is normal, because nobody else is maintaining their transaxle either (until it makes noise). Or is about to make noise. And then the accepted NEXT most important endeavor is to nail down an oil brand or type. Not discuss how to determine a sensible NEXT oil change interval but an oil brand or type. And it must ALSO be so expensive as to require extensive research and planning for the expenditure.
Here and there I see a pic of a "generally clean magnet." This gives me hope that Vanagons will exist for awhile, not ALL sidelined by transaxle failure at 35 years old.
Well anyway I'm as guilty as anyone for similar past transgressions. But from here on out, my poor, over-driven, precision mechanical components, bearings, gears, R&P get clean lubricant.
OK you guys get back to work.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Igeo
Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2018
Posts: 888
Location: Oakland, CA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Noise? Transmission? |
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Sodo-
I totally agree. I just bought an '87 and since my habit is to buy older vehicles and make them reliable, changing all the fluids first thing is standard procedure for me. I drained my transaxle the first day I had it. It's a no brainer.
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SurfaceRust
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2016
Posts: 160
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Noise? Transmission? |
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I changed the fluid. It didn't look too bad and their wasn't an awful lot on the magnet. Still happy i changed it though.
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SurfaceRust
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2016
Posts: 160
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:06 pm Post subject: Re: Noise? Transmission? |
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| Next I'm going to have a look at the engine mounts and see if that could be the issue |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:50 pm Post subject: Re: Noise? Transmission? |
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| SurfaceRust wrote: |
| I changed the fluid. It didn't look too bad and their wasn't an awful lot on the magnet. Still happy i changed it though. |
That IS an awful lot (if you would like to get more miles from your trans).
Prob shouldn't wait so long next time.
But there is some clear space on the magnet, that's better than most.
And theres no big chunks.
Note there are two methods of draining oil and that produce different magnet hairdos. The hairdo sizes are not really comparable, but the amount of clear space on the magnet is comparable.
A tale of two drainplug magnets:
#1) The van has been parked and the "fluid" is drained "cold". The magnet has had days to build a wild and gangly hairdo from the "fluid" near or above the magnet. Metal drops out of the "fluid" from a cone shape above the magnet (by gravity). But a lot of the metal in the fluid elsewhere (more than an inch away), such as in the gear case (forward) has settled onto the bottom of the trans, thus won't flow out the hole and will remain in the trans - to pre-pollute your fresh oil.
#2) The van has been driven 60 mph on the freeway for at least 30 minutes and the owner stopped and quickly drained the oil HOT. The particles are whipped up & suspended in the fluid and carried out. This gets the MAX amount of contaminants out of the gearbox. Ideally with the front wheels on ramps or as high as you can tolerate. But the magnet has been sitting next to the ring gear whizzing by at 700RPM, which has washed away most of its hairdo. So the hot-fluid Vanagon maintainer thinks his gearbox is cleaner than the other cold-fluid guy who pulled out a big bouffant hairdo. But since he drained the oil hot & stirred, his trans is NOW cleaner than the other guy's and won't pre-pollute the new oil like the other guy's.
Thus concludes the riveting tale.
But EITHER way, you are in an upper echelon of Vanagon maintainers cuz you're actually removing the "contaminated fluid" and replacing it with a "clean lubricant". Sometimes you don't have time or energy to do the best method. But just know that your trans and next batch of lubricant will be cleaner if you drain it HOT & stirred.
SurfaceRust, you are doing a good thing for your van, and a good thing for TheSamba by posting pics showing how you did it. Lucky you have clear spots on your magnet. That means either someone changed oil not so long ago, or your van has a good trans and you can plan trips without worry.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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SurfaceRust
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2016
Posts: 160
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:28 am Post subject: Re: Noise? Transmission? |
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| Sodo wrote: |
| SurfaceRust wrote: |
| I changed the fluid. It didn't look too bad and their wasn't an awful lot on the magnet. Still happy i changed it though. |
That IS an awful lot (if you would like to get more miles from your trans).
Prob shouldn't wait so long next time.
But there is some clear space on the magnet, that's better than most.
And theres no big chunks.
Note there are two methods of draining oil and that produce different magnet hairdos. The hairdo sizes are not really comparable, but the amount of clear space on the magnet is comparable.
A tale of two drainplug magnets:
#1) The van has been parked and the "fluid" is drained "cold". The magnet has had days to build a wild and gangly hairdo from the "fluid" near or above the magnet. Metal drops out of the "fluid" from a cone shape above the magnet (by gravity). But a lot of the metal in the fluid elsewhere (more than an inch away), such as in the gear case (forward) has settled onto the bottom of the trans, thus won't flow out the hole and will remain in the trans - to pre-pollute your fresh oil.
#2) The van has been driven 60 mph on the freeway for at least 30 minutes and the owner stopped and quickly drained the oil HOT. The particles are whipped up & suspended in the fluid and carried out. This gets the MAX amount of contaminants out of the gearbox. Ideally with the front wheels on ramps or as high as you can tolerate. But the magnet has been sitting next to the ring gear whizzing by at 700RPM, which has washed away most of its hairdo. So the hot-fluid Vanagon maintainer thinks his gearbox is cleaner than the other cold-fluid guy who pulled out a big bouffant hairdo. But since he drained the oil hot & stirred, his trans is NOW cleaner than the other guy's and won't pre-pollute the new oil like the other guy's.
Thus concludes the riveting tale.
But EITHER way, you are in an upper echelon of Vanagon maintainers cuz you're actually removing the "contaminated fluid" and replacing it with a "clean lubricant". Sometimes you don't have time or energy to do the best method. But just know that your trans and next batch of lubricant will be cleaner if you drain it HOT & stirred.
SurfaceRust, you are doing a good thing for your van, and a good thing for TheSamba by posting pics showing how you did it. Lucky you have clear spots on your magnet. That means either someone changed oil not so long ago, or your van has a good trans and you can plan trips without worry. |
I purchased the Van a few months ago and unfortunately I wasn’t told much about the maintenance performed. Everything that I have inspected leads me to believe some regular maintenance was performed. I’m not sure the last time the gear oil was changed but regardless it was on my list.
When changing it I drove around for 20 or so minutes before crawling under and draining, so it seems I did it the better way. The used oil didn’t look overly polluted. It leads me to believe the oil has been changed before.
Nonetheless the noise still remains. I checked the engine mounts on the mostache bars. Honestly im not sure where they would typically wear, but they seem ok. They aren’t expensive on go Westy so it might be worth a change. I still need to check the mount in the front of the transmission. What is the best way to check these mounts? Will their be any clear indications of wear if they are worn? |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50337
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:53 am Post subject: Re: Noise? Transmission? |
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| The rubber of the mounts can rip or it can tear loose from the metal it is bonded to. It can be hard to tell just by looking at a mount that is under compression if it is still serviceable or not. |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:24 am Post subject: Re: Noise? Transmission? |
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Noise from engine mounts will be a louder "rattle" that's the same frequency as the engine RPM but will occur when accelerating or decelerating (probably not BOTH accel and decel). The mainshaft bearing in the transmission will have the same frequency as the engine too, the sound aligning to engine RPM, and pretty much the same frequency in every gear. But engine mount problems will be louder.
Put a jack under the engine and jack up a little. If the rear engine mounts are broken you will see the rubber separated from the metal mounts. This is a MUCH better problem to have than transmission problems.
Move the jack to the front of the transmission and jack up a little. If the front engine mount is broken you will see the mount lift from 'lower' to what looks like the "proper neutral location". You will be able to see that it's not holding the weight. And perhaps see rubber separated from the metal mount. As I said, I doubt it's an engine mount problem but I can certainly be wrong, and the test is pretty easy.
That fuzz on your magnet is real. Long skinny shards that have NOT yet been chewed up by your gears and bearings, suggests they are "recent". It could be from your mainshaft bearing (very sorry to write this). Probably should keep an eye on that magnet, observe how quickly it develops another hairdo. This all helps in deciding what to do with your trans.
To take a periodic look at the magnet, ou CAN remove the plug and quickly poke a thumb in the hole if you are reasonably agile and have room to work under the van (jacked). Clean the fellers bunghole area first though, so you don't put more dirt in than you had. If you park on a slope nose-down so most of the oil is to the front it's a little easier. It would be good to buy a 2nd drain magnet for this process, so you can inspect the hairdo at your leisure. And you can use that 2nd magnet in the filler hole to give an 'above the oil level" opinion on your trans' metal production.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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SurfaceRust
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2016
Posts: 160
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: Noise? Transmission? |
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| Sodo wrote: |
Noise from engine mounts will be a louder "rattle" that's the same frequency as the engine RPM but will occur when accelerating or decelerating (probably not BOTH accel and decel). The mainshaft bearing in the transmission will have the same frequency as the engine too, the sound aligning to engine RPM, and pretty much the same frequency in every gear. But engine mount problems will be louder.
Put a jack under the engine and jack up a little. If the rear engine mounts are broken you will see the rubber separated from the metal mounts. This is a MUCH better problem to have than transmission problems.
Move the jack to the front of the transmission and jack up a little. If the front engine mount is broken you will see the mount lift from 'lower' to what looks like the "proper neutral location". You will be able to see that it's not holding the weight. And perhaps see rubber separated from the metal mount. As I said, I doubt it's an engine mount problem but I can certainly be wrong, and the test is pretty easy.
That fuzz on your magnet is real. Long skinny shards that have NOT yet been chewed up by your gears and bearings, suggests they are "recent". It could be from your mainshaft bearing (very sorry to write this). Probably should keep an eye on that magnet, observe how quickly it develops another hairdo. This all helps in deciding what to do with your trans.
To take a periodic look at the magnet, ou CAN remove the plug and quickly poke a thumb in the hole if you are reasonably agile and have room to work under the van (jacked). Clean the fellers bunghole area first though, so you don't put more dirt in than you had. If you park on a slope nose-down so most of the oil is to the front it's a little easier. It would be good to buy a 2nd drain magnet for this process, so you can inspect the hairdo at your leisure. And you can use that 2nd magnet in the filler hole to give an 'above the oil level" opinion on your trans' metal production. |
I will likely do another gear oil change soon. I would like to be sure that everything is flushed out and I will be able to check it again then. I filtered the oil that I drained and did not find an alarming amount of debris. I looked on the site to compare how my magnet looked to others. It does not appear abnormal. It seems most have right around the same amount of debris. It also seems that the size of the shards is pretty normal as well.
Here is a link to a post that has a lot of pictures of different transaxle oil change magnets
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=596332 |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Noise? Transmission? |
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| SurfaceRust wrote: |
| I looked on the site to compare how my magnet looked to others. It does not appear abnormal. It seems most have right around the same amount of debris |
All true. You didn’t do anything wrong or dumb. Things have changed behind your bak. You are following the general wisdom of theSamba, which is disappointingly "misguided." Another popular Samba advice is to wait for noise as your call to action (rebuild). This was OK when it was cheap to rebuild, used parts were plentiful, it was OK to destroy all the other parts in the trans too, and when nobody cared if a rebuild lasted only 40k mi. Cuz they might sell it anyway and look for a nice low-miles van that simply needed headgaskets for $1,500.
Members need to maintain their gearbox before it makes noise (= too late). Polluted oil makes that noise come sooner (tens of thousands of miles sooner).
It's because the Bentley manual (and VW) says you don't have to change the gear oil "for the lifetime of the vehicle", that everyone is running their trans totally polluted, deleting tens of thousands of miles of transaxle bearing life. All the magnet photos are 'normal', but not “GOOD”. They are pics informing us of what a magnet looks like when the transaxle is destroying itstelf in the latter part of its "lifetime" due to self-contaminated lubricant.
This is exactly the problem to be overcome, but it's mostly too late, and a little disappointing for us antique'rs----- that all the Vanagon transaxles had to be destroyed to make the point that gear oil needs to be kept clean (for the long run, or to please the antique'rs).
Perspectives change bigtime AFTER the van becomes a collectors item, good used parts are used up, replacement parts have quality problems, costs skyrocket. It's 20/20 hindsight.
For another example you probably won't find many discussions of the "atrocity" of polluted gear oil & hairy magnet pics on a Plymouth Voyager forum (either).
Sounds like you're with the program now though, wisely adding transaxle lubricant maintenance to your list.
The good thing about this is It's not difficult or expensive to DIY or to have it done by a shop. Just gotta start while the trans is still quiet. But without noise, theres no “call to action”. Thats why somebody gotta harp on it (on thSamba). More members should (like the fuel lines thing).
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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