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86 westfalia - 2001 legacy EJ25 no Injector pulse
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scoutwesty
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:30 pm    Post subject: 86 westfalia - 2001 legacy EJ25 no Injector pulse Reply with quote

Hello all.

After searching and finding similar problems posted by other members(mostly no spark and no inj pulse), I have yet to get my van started.



I have an 86 van with a 2001 auto legacy 2.5. I did my own harness following Mick at boxerswaps/busaru. It seems that my injectors are not getting a pulse signal. The injector plug is getting 12v to the + pin but doesn't seam to be getting a ground pulse.


Tests i have done so far
Check b+. its good.
Check Ign on power. good.
Check fuel pressure - 38-48psi
Check if inj are clogged. they open and spray if voltage is applied directly.
Checked crank sensor resistance. ~1.8k ohm. Produces voltage as well
Checked cam sensor resistance. ~1.8k ohms. Same
Checked all inj resistance. ~15 ohm
A friend had mentioned an immobiliser. Swapped ecu's x3. no change.
Backprobed inj ground at ecu. getting ground. tested w a multimeter. 12v when one probe on b+ and other on inj ground.
Backprobed inj ground at bulkhead connector wiring harness side. same result as above.
Backprobed inj ground at bulkhead connector engine side. same result as above.
Tested grounds for cam and crank sensor at ecu. same as above.
Tested grounds for ign system, power supply and control systems at ecu. same as above.
Tested for voltage at knock sensor at ecu. 2.5v close to spec according to my pinout.
Backup power supply has 12v
Relays are working
Timing is on point.
No broken teeth on any of the timing gears.
Cam and crank sensor 'faces' are clean
Atmospheric pressure sensor swapped. no change.
Cam and Crank sensor swapped. no change.
Ecu swapped. no change. this was swapped with multiple other 2000-2001 legacy ecus. not the same exact numbers but has the same ecu plugs.
Checked engine fault codes. p0463 code. irrelevant.

I am at a loss here. The van will start and run for a sec or two with starting spray but dies soon after.
Is there a way to test the inj ground that i am missing?
Please let me know if there is anything i should do or if you have any suggestions.

There still is one wire coming off the gray/brown engine connector that wasnt identified. I dont believe it has anything to do with the injector system but idk for sure. red/green on the gray side. white/blue on the brown side. (This has been identified as a power wire for the purge valve under the manifold)

Thanks in advance.
-Ethan
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scoutwesty
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 86 westfalia - 2001 legacy EJ25 no Injector pulse Reply with quote

After pouring over the ecu pinout again, I noticed that the ecu plugs are missing b136 pin16. this pin is a common ground for what is labeled as 'sensors', atmospheric pressure sensor, throttle position sensor, rear o2 sensor, and engine coolant sensor. The ecu plugs are also missing b136 pin 15, the 'sensor power supply' wire.
Thoughts? Im about 90% sure that I did not modify these wires.
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wesitarz
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: 86 westfalia - 2001 legacy EJ25 no Injector pulse Reply with quote

Those two wires should be uncut from the ECU to the harness. 15 is 5v power (light blue) and 16 is ground (red/green) for my 02 Impreza 2.5L
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wesitarz
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:25 pm    Post subject: Re: 86 westfalia - 2001 legacy EJ25 no Injector pulse Reply with quote

Do you have a good engine ground? If you connect the two green test connectors and turn the ignition to ON, do you have both relays clicking and solenoid clicking on the throttle body. Let the gas cycle through several times before you disconnect the green connectors and attempt a start.
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scoutwesty
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:53 pm    Post subject: Re: 86 westfalia - 2001 legacy EJ25 no Injector pulse Reply with quote

wesitarz wrote:
Do you have a good engine ground? If you connect the two green test connectors and turn the ignition to ON, do you have both relays clicking and solenoid clicking on the throttle body. Let the gas cycle through several times before you disconnect the green connectors and attempt a start.


Good engine ground.
i have two straps from eng to body and body to ecu. In test mode. the fuel pump runs, main and fuel relay click and tb clicks.
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scoutwesty
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 86 westfalia - 2001 legacy EJ25 no Injector pulse Reply with quote

wesitarz wrote:
Those two wires should be uncut from the ECU to the harness. 15 is 5v power (light blue) and 16 is ground (red/green) for my 02 Impreza 2.5L


These wires are not present at all. they werent modified because they arent there to begin with. it seemed odd to me. the 'sensors' positive nor ground wire were even in the ecu plug b136.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:11 pm    Post subject: Re: 86 westfalia - 2001 legacy EJ25 no Injector pulse Reply with quote

I think all of the injectors share a common power feed, and then each injector has its own ground circuit. Those four ground circuits go to the ECM which has a separate driver for each injector. So it would sound like the ECM isn’t seeing something it wants before it will start firing the injectors. You have checked your CMP and CKP sensor resistance, but I would suggest double checking the circuit integrity of those two sensors. Check from the ECM plug to each of the plugs at the sensors. If it will fire on starting fluid then we know it has spark. If I remember correctly, the ECM uses the CMP sensor input for cylinder position reference to decide when to fire each injector. And also make sure the engine has a good ground and that all of the ECM grounds are clean and well grounded.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:27 pm    Post subject: Re: 86 westfalia - 2001 legacy EJ25 no Injector pulse Reply with quote

Looking at the wiring diagram for an 01 Legacy. It looks like “B134” pin 7&8, “B135 pin 6, and “B136 pin 21&22 should all be connected to ground. Hope this helps.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:12 pm    Post subject: Re: 86 westfalia - 2001 legacy EJ25 no Injector pulse Reply with quote

For the 01 Impreza B136 16 is GND sensors
134 7 injectors
134 27 ignition system
134 8 power supply
136 21 and 22 control systems
All should read 0 volts with ignition switch ON.

Can you get a loaner noid light kit. Then you know for sure that the injectors are not firing when the engine is cranking. When I had this problem it was the ECU. With a voltage tester that tests sensors you should be able to see a flicker of the tester light while backprobing the cam and crank signals at the ECU connector while the engine is cranking.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:10 pm    Post subject: Re: 86 westfalia - 2001 legacy EJ25 no Injector pulse Reply with quote

Was this engine running before the conversion? Was anything replaced like the cam or crank reluctor rings - are they the right ones?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:20 pm    Post subject: Re: 86 westfalia - 2001 legacy EJ25 no Injector pulse Reply with quote

I came across this regarding the MAP sensor:

Your car fails to start: The engine’s computer uses the MAP sensor to gauge atmospheric pressure before the engine is started. A false reading could cause too much or too little fuel to be delivered to the engine. Both conditions could keep it from firing up.

Not sure if you have a MAF or a MAP sensor. My 02 has a MAP. Can test with a multimeter (YouTube)
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:21 pm    Post subject: Re: 86 westfalia - 2001 legacy EJ25 no Injector pulse Reply with quote

Here is the ecu pinout. i have taken the time to color code everything.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:36 pm    Post subject: Re: 86 westfalia - 2001 legacy EJ25 no Injector pulse Reply with quote

jordauto wrote:
I think all of the injectors share a common power feed, and then each injector has its own ground circuit. Those four ground circuits go to the ECM which has a separate driver for each injector. So it would sound like the ECM isn’t seeing something it wants before it will start firing the injectors. You have checked your CMP and CKP sensor resistance, but I would suggest double checking the circuit integrity of those two sensors. Check from the ECM plug to each of the plugs at the sensors. If it will fire on starting fluid then we know it has spark. If I remember correctly, the ECM uses the CMP sensor input for cylinder position reference to decide when to fire each injector. And also make sure the engine has a good ground and that all of the ECM grounds are clean and well grounded.


Its the opposite for the inj. They share a common ground at the ecm and have 4 seperate power wires at the ecm. I just uploaded the ecm pinout.

I think I checked the crank and cam circuits today. Im a bit unsure as how to do this. For the crank sensor, I probed the two pins b135-7(+) and 8(-). Checked with a multimeter for a +7v and -7v. I didnt get anything. I repeated this process with a bootleg probe light (wires connected to a light). no flashing.
Is this wrong way to do this?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:56 pm    Post subject: Re: 86 westfalia - 2001 legacy EJ25 no Injector pulse Reply with quote

wesitarz wrote:
For the 01 Impreza B136 16 is GND sensors
134 7 injectors
134 27 ignition system
134 8 power supply
136 21 and 22 control systems
All should read 0 volts with ignition switch ON.

Can you get a loaner noid light kit. Then you know for sure that the injectors are not firing when the engine is cranking. When I had this problem it was the ECU. With a voltage tester that tests sensors you should be able to see a flicker of the tester light while backprobing the cam and crank signals at the ECU connector while the engine is cranking.


To Test these grounds, I probed the pins at the ecu and tested with a multimeter by putting the neg probe at the neg pin and putting the multimeter positive on a B+ source. This told me that the grounds are in fact grounded.

The readings i was getting was ~12v because the multimeter + probe was put on a 12v source. once again, im sure this is wrong but I figured it at least told me that the gorund pins at the ecu were grounded.

I have done a bootleg noid light(wires and a light bulb) at the inj plug and had no luck with any light flashing while cranking. No pulse was confirmed by dry plugs an taking the fuel rail out of the manifold, cranking and watching for spray.

wesitarz wrote:
Was this engine running before the conversion? Was anything replaced like the cam or crank reluctor rings - are they the right ones?


I am unsure if it was running before. Its a junkyard long block w accessories. the heads were shot. I got the heads rebuilt by a pro. Timing belt and all accessories were replaced as well. The crank gear and cam gears are original. This is the site I referenced for the timing marks.

https://shagbarkblog.wordpress.com/2015/02/12/how-to-set-timing-on-a-subaru-sohc-ej25/

wesitarz wrote:
I came across this regarding the MAP sensor:

Your car fails to start: The engine’s computer uses the MAP sensor to gauge atmospheric pressure before the engine is started. A false reading could cause too much or too little fuel to be delivered to the engine. Both conditions could keep it from firing up.

Not sure if you have a MAF or a MAP sensor. My 02 has a MAP. Can test with a multimeter (YouTube)


I havent checked out the MAP sensor out yet. ill take a look at it tmw.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:51 pm    Post subject: Re: 86 westfalia - 2001 legacy EJ25 no Injector pulse Reply with quote

Well that’s what I get for skimming through the wiring diagram too fast. 😜 To test and verify your wiring, you can use your multi meter on the continuity setting. Or diode setting if that’s all it has. Connect one lead to the pin at the ECM plug, with it unplugged of course. Then connect the other end to wherever that circuit terminates. So for example one test lead to the ECM pin and the other test lead to to pin in the Cam position sensor. Do that for every pin in the ECM plugs since you have the pin out chart. I suspect you’ll find a wire crossed somewhere, or and open circuit to either the cam or crank sensor. Sorry for the misinformation earlier, I was busy at work with an A6 with intermittent no start due to no fuel injector pulse. I should have taken an extra minute to look up the pin outs for your Subaru. Let us know what you find.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:57 pm    Post subject: Re: 86 westfalia - 2001 legacy EJ25 no Injector pulse Reply with quote

jordauto wrote:
Well that’s what I get for skimming through the wiring diagram too fast. 😜 To test and verify your wiring, you can use your multi meter on the continuity setting. Or diode setting if that’s all it has. Connect one lead to the pin at the ECM plug, with it unplugged of course. Then connect the other end to wherever that circuit terminates. So for example one test lead to the ECM pin and the other test lead to to pin in the Cam position sensor. Do that for every pin in the ECM plugs since you have the pin out chart. I suspect you’ll find a wire crossed somewhere, or and open circuit to either the cam or crank sensor. Sorry for the misinformation earlier, I was busy at work with an A6 with intermittent no start due to no fuel injector pulse. I should have taken an extra minute to look up the pin outs for your Subaru. Let us know what you find.


Ill get after this tmw. Any idea with the missing b136 wires? big deal?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:43 pm    Post subject: Re: 86 westfalia - 2001 legacy EJ25 no Injector pulse Reply with quote

It’s very odd if those wires and pins are missing from the ECM plugs. The sensors need both their 5volt reference as well as a ground to provide the correct signal to the ECM. Did you pull the engine and ECM from the donor yourself? Is it for sure a 2001? I looked at 2000,2001 and 2002 diagrams and they all suggest all of the missing pins should indeed be there. Sometimes I transpose the pin layout in the plug, as sometimes the picture is the plug side and sometimes it’s the harness side. The easy way to verify you’re reading the layout correctly is to check it against wire colours. Which it sounds like you’ve done.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:04 am    Post subject: Re: 86 westfalia - 2001 legacy EJ25 no Injector pulse Reply with quote

Not sure why the need to pull any pins. Usually the wires are just cut leaving about 1 foot of wire from the connector just in case. I cut mine shorter and it's a PITA if you have to go back and use them for any further mods.
Anyway I think you need to re-pin 15 any 16 and reconnect the wires if still in your harness. Your ECU is not getting readings from your sensors (MAP?) and not firing/no injector pulse.
To get any cam or crank signal you need a voltage test light that does sensors. It has a red/green LED light system (Innova is the one I use)
Busaru.com has a short YouTube video on how to de-pin/re-pin the ECU connector.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:18 pm    Post subject: Re: 86 westfalia - 2001 legacy EJ25 no Injector pulse Reply with quote

jordauto wrote:
It’s very odd if those wires and pins are missing from the ECM plugs. The sensors need both their 5volt reference as well as a ground to provide the correct signal to the ECM. Did you pull the engine and ECM from the donor yourself? Is it for sure a 2001? I looked at 2000,2001 and 2002 diagrams and they all suggest all of the missing pins should indeed be there. Sometimes I transpose the pin layout in the plug, as sometimes the picture is the plug side and sometimes it’s the harness side. The easy way to verify you’re reading the layout correctly is to check it against wire colours. Which it sounds like you’ve done.


I thought this was odd for these pins to be missing as well. ill check my wire pile to see if the missing wires were pulled on accident.

The engine, ecm and harness were all from the same vehicle and were all pulled by myself.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:28 pm    Post subject: Re: 86 westfalia - 2001 legacy EJ25 no Injector pulse Reply with quote

wesitarz wrote:
Not sure why the need to pull any pins. Usually the wires are just cut leaving about 1 foot of wire from the connector just in case. I cut mine shorter and it's a PITA if you have to go back and use them for any further mods.
Anyway I think you need to re-pin 15 any 16 and reconnect the wires if still in your harness. Your ECU is not getting readings from your sensors (MAP?) and not firing/no injector pulse.
To get any cam or crank signal you need a voltage test light that does sensors. It has a red/green LED light system (Innova is the one I use)
Busaru.com has a short YouTube video on how to de-pin/re-pin the ECU connector.


I pulled the unnecessary pins to clean the harness up. Didn't want spaghetti hangin out of the ecu. I followed Micks (busaru) instructions pretty religiously for the harness.

So where did these pins 15-16 originally go? Im assuming they went from ecu to one of the b21(e2) or b22(e3) bulkhead connectors. Where should i wire them now?


I just tested to see if there was ground continuity from the tps. Nothing. This was done by probing each pin and seeing if there was continuity to the common(engine) ground on the manifold. I did this test on the MAP sensor as well. same result. I get a 5v reading from the red/yellow wire on these sensors but no ground. These sensors are fed thier ground through the missing 'sensor' ground at the ecu? correct?

I also checked for voltage between pin 2(black) and 4(red/yellow) on the tps and got 0v. But i couldve tested pin 1 and 3?
it seems there is a missing pin on the tps plug as well? Can some verify this?

My thoughts are that this would solidify that these sensors need a ground source.


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