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DurocShark
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2004
Posts: 6624
Location: Crappy town in a crappy state. But the beach is nearby, so I have that going for me.
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 Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:32 pm Post subject: Back to not starting |
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I finally got to go spend some tuning time with the bug today, but it wouldn't start again. Weak/no spark.
I'm ordering a new coil, but I really don't think that coil suddenly died when I swapped engines. I just want a new one anyway to have as a spare for now, and for the 64 if I ever get to start it.
I'm really leaning towards this Pertronix distributor. I popped the cap, rotor, and shield off, and found this:
Is that typical? The ignition module looks like it's been in a fire. But the labels on it look fine. The stickers have no sign of damage. Just the black plastic.
I really don't want to go back to the Brazilian 009 with its Pertronix module that's been siliconed into place. But I guess I really should.
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Ricksurfin
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2017
Posts: 295
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: Back to not starting |
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| Why not just replace the Pertronix unit with a set of points and condenser? |
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73SlowBug
Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2017
Posts: 439
Location: PENNSYLVANIA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: Back to not starting |
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| DurocShark wrote: |
I finally got to go spend some tuning time with the bug today, but it wouldn't start again. Weak/no spark.
I'm ordering a new coil, but I really don't think that coil suddenly died when I swapped engines. I just want a new one anyway to have as a spare for now, and for the 64 if I ever get to start it.
I'm really leaning towards this Pertronix distributor. I popped the cap, rotor, and shield off, and found this:
Is that typical? The ignition module looks like it's been in a fire. But the labels on it look fine. The stickers have no sign of damage. Just the black plastic.
I really don't want to go back to the Brazilian 009 with its Pertronix module that's been siliconed into place. But I guess I really should. |
Did you leave the key on with the car off?
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DurocShark
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2004
Posts: 6624
Location: Crappy town in a crappy state. But the beach is nearby, so I have that going for me.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: Back to not starting |
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No.
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31379
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:33 pm Post subject: Re: Back to not starting |
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| Ricksurfin wrote: |
| Why not just replace the Pertronix unit with a set of points and condenser? |
That's what I would do.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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Multi69s
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 5364
Location: Lefty, CA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:57 pm Post subject: Re: Back to not starting |
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I just did some "very Quick" research, assuming the Pertronix module is wired correctly, two things can kill them quickly, leaving the key on, or having the wrong coil. Having said that, I will NEVER run a Pertronix module in any of my VWs again. I have been driving VWs for close to 40 years as my DD. Shortly after they came out, I drank the Pertronix Kool-Aid and installed the modules in both of my VWs at that time (69 road & Baja). I thought that they were the best thing to come around since sliced bread. That meant no more points closing up, or condensers going bad. That is until I had one fail. If the points close up due to wear on the rub block, a screw driver gets you going. When a condenser goes bad, you can usually limp home (slowly). However, when the Pertronix module fails, YOU ARE STRANDED, and I was. The failed module, and the good module both went in the garbage can, and I retuned back to points. At first, I carried extra points and condensers in my VWs, but after collecting many parts, each of my VWs have a spare distributer in the trunk, so if I have an issue, remove one nut, disconnect wires, swap, and I'm on the road in about 10 minutes.
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69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15987
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:36 am Post subject: Re: Back to not starting |
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| DurocShark wrote: |
Is that typical? The ignition module looks like it's been in a fire. But the labels on it look fine. The stickers have no sign of damage. Just the black plastic. |
Not typical. It could be very old. The plastic could be degrading from exposure to heat and oil (fumes) from the engine.
One thing I noticed from your pic above... there appears to be some frayed wires just as the black+red wires leave the distributor. Is this a bad wire / bad connection? The wires look like they go into a sleeve. I thought most modules just have the two wires loose as they leave the distributor.
There is one exception I can think of... shielded wires. To protect the sensitive wires they can be wrapped in a wire sheath to prevent EMF interference from triggering a false event.
Suggest three test:
Voltage at the module red wire WHILE the engine is cranking. If the starter pulls enough current away while cranking the voltage that makes it to the Pertronix module will be too low. Below 10v the module may stop firing the coil.
Manually test that the module will ground the black wire as the rotor turns. Wire your MM according to this diagram.
As the magnet rotates and passes the module it should cause the module to ground the black wire. Connected as above the MM should register 12v as the 4 magnet trigger points pass the module. This test can be done with the module installed. This a static test and tells you the module can trigger the coil when there is no other load, but doesn't confirm it will fire a spark while the engine is cranking.
Replace the module with a set of points/condenser. If this works, it is a clear indicator the module is the problem. I have seen points fire the coil with as low as 9v. While electronic points modules which are designed to work at 12v can stop firing anywhere below 11v. This is not a problem with the module... it is a problem with your battery/wiring. Points are more tolerant of low voltage situations.
Here is the Pertronix page on troubleshooting:
http://www.pertronix.com/support/tips/default.aspx
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
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DurocShark
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2004
Posts: 6624
Location: Crappy town in a crappy state. But the beach is nearby, so I have that going for me.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:37 am Post subject: Re: Back to not starting |
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I did that with my busses. The spare was pre-timed with the timing plate on the distributor. Drop it in, tighten the 13mm nut, and go. If I can find a good used German distributor I'll do the same thing.
This is a Flamethrower distributor. I haven't pulled it apart, but it isn't just an 034 that I threw a Pertronix into.
That said, anybody have anything to say about how that module looks?
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DurocShark
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2004
Posts: 6624
Location: Crappy town in a crappy state. But the beach is nearby, so I have that going for me.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:44 am Post subject: Re: Back to not starting |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
Not typical. It could be very old. The plastic could be degrading from exposure to heat and oil (fumes) from the engine.
One thing I noticed from your pic above... there appears to be some frayed wires just as the black+red wires leave the distributor. Is this a bad wire / bad connection? The wires look like they go into a sleeve. I thought most modules just have the two wires loose as they leave the distributor.
There is one exception I can think of... shielded wires. To protect the sensitive wires they can be wrapped in a wire sheath to prevent EMF interference from triggering a false event.
Suggest three test:
Voltage at the module red wire WHILE the engine is cranking. If the starter pulls enough current away while cranking the voltage that makes it to the Pertronix module will be too low. Below 10v the module may stop firing the coil.
Manually test that the module will ground the black wire as the rotor turns. Wire your MM according to this diagram.
As the magnet rotates and passes the module it should cause the module to ground the black wire. Connected as above the MM should register 12v as the 4 magnet trigger points pass the module. This test can be done with the module installed. This a static test and tells you the module can trigger the coil when there is no other load, but doesn't confirm it will fire a spark while the engine is cranking.
Replace the module with a set of points/condenser. If this works, it is a clear indicator the module is the problem. I have seen points fire the coil with as low as 9v. While electronic points modules which are designed to work at 12v can stop firing anywhere below 11v. This is not a problem with the module... it is a problem with your battery/wiring. Points are more tolerant of low voltage situations.
Here is the Pertronix page on troubleshooting:
http://www.pertronix.com/support/tips/default.aspx |
I'll try your test. Thanks.
The wires aren't frayed, just a loom I put around them. It's a baja with everything exposed, so I am trying to protect what I can. That Flamethrower distributor is brand new. If it's old, it's been on the shelf, not in a car. And the sticker on the module is perfect. That's what I found odd. If it had degraded like the plastic, I wouldn't question it.
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vamram 
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2012
Posts: 7304
Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:58 am Post subject: Re: Back to not starting |
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Flame Thrower is a POS. I have one in my parts stash so that I never forget and get tempted to buy another one. Save a few $$ and buy a real German rebuilt 034 or DVDA from one of the well-known Samba builders. Rant aside, points and condensor would be a quick test, you can always go back to an electronic module.
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DurocShark
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2004
Posts: 6624
Location: Crappy town in a crappy state. But the beach is nearby, so I have that going for me.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: Back to not starting |
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OK, it wasn't ignition. Combination of poor fuel flow (the electric pump was mounted too high) and the alt not doing anything so battery was draining fast with the electronic ignition AND electric fuel pump.
Sounds amazing though.
https://i.imgur.com/RHHTlQk.mp4
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joey1320
Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2006
Posts: 2325
Location: Cleveland, OH
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:03 am Post subject: Re: Back to not starting |
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Glad you got it going.
Looking at the video, the idle seems a bit low to me. Did you check the RPMs? Also, at the 14sec mark your generator pulley seems to wobble when you rev the engine. I would look into it.
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DurocShark
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2004
Posts: 6624
Location: Crappy town in a crappy state. But the beach is nearby, so I have that going for me.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:27 am Post subject: Re: Back to not starting |
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It's a brand new engine and carb. Haven't adjusted anything yet. That's just the base settings right now.
The pulley is wobbly. It's not super tight though. And regardless.... The alt is bad.
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15987
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: Back to not starting |
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| DurocShark wrote: |
| The pulley is wobbly. It's not super tight though. And regardless.... The alt is bad. |
Which pulley? The alternator pulley? Is the pulley wobbly because of a bad alternator or because it is loose on the shaft?
Do you have all 8-10 shims installed either between the pulley halves or outside the outer pulley half? You need a min of 8 shims to prevent the pulley nut from bottoming out on the thread shaft.
Think of the shims + cone washer under the nut as a single "fat washer" meant to space the nut far enough out so it remains on the threaded part of the shaft. If the "fat washer" is too thin (you remove shims), the nut will thread all the way to the bottom of the threaded part of the shaft and torque to spec, but not apply any pressure on the pulley halves.
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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DurocShark
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2004
Posts: 6624
Location: Crappy town in a crappy state. But the beach is nearby, so I have that going for me.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Back to not starting |
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Please ignore that pulley.
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DurocShark
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2004
Posts: 6624
Location: Crappy town in a crappy state. But the beach is nearby, so I have that going for me.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: Back to not starting |
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Here it is properly tightened. It was loose because I didn't give a crap earlier. I was running my "power pulley" at the time, and I just needed enough tension to spin the alt.
Now that I've replaced the alt with one that actually works, it's tight. There's still a smidge of wobble, visible mostly because of the idle misfire, but it''s acceptable.
https://i.imgur.com/GPTzOux.mp4
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scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 2922
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: Back to not starting |
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| DurocShark wrote: |
| I did that with my busses. The spare was pre-timed with the timing plate on the distributor. |
I never have understood why anyone carries a spare distributor. Are you worried something will break on your installed unit?
The trigger on the shaft looks melted, or is that just the photo?
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DurocShark
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2004
Posts: 6624
Location: Crappy town in a crappy state. But the beach is nearby, so I have that going for me.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: Back to not starting |
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No, it looks like shit. That was the point of this post. But the stickers on there look perfect. I'm thinking whatever is wrong with it, either happened before the stickers were applied, or is the plastic decaying without external influences.
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DurocShark
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2004
Posts: 6624
Location: Crappy town in a crappy state. But the beach is nearby, so I have that going for me.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: Back to not starting |
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Also, I used to carry the spare distributor because when an electronic unit fails, it fails catastrophically. Having a spare ready to go, already timed and set, is a 5 minute repair to get moving again.
It actually saved my ass once in the 78 bus. Compufire failed in the middle of Arizona. No cell signal, no nothing. Swapped in the spare and 5 minutes later I was trucking along.
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vamram
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2012
Posts: 7304
Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: Back to not starting |
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Why does the belt angle change when you rev it....?
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Eventually, "we are what we pretend to be.’”
Give peace a chance - Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!
'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!! |
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