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84tintop Samba Member
Joined: July 27, 2018 Posts: 13 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:26 pm Post subject: Cylinder Replacement |
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So I did a search to see if there was any info on replacing cylinders... searched here and Google. It seems there isn't much out there on this.
Can anyone tell me if there are any special tools needed and also if it can be done in frame? How hard is it to swap the cylinders?
I am burning oil like it's my job. The heads are about 3 years old and maybe 20k miles, but the bottom has never been rebuilt. I'm considering getting a 2nd engine case, rebuilding it, then swapping it in place of my existing one... then rebuilding that as a spare, but maybe the easier cheaper way is to just fix up what I have.
Any input is welcome. Thanks! |
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borninabus Samba R&D Dept.
Joined: May 18, 2006 Posts: 4532 Location: Arizona Highways
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: Cylinder Replacement |
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more than likely, it's your rings that need replacing. cylinders may be reusable with a hone job, but there's definitely a bunch of different ways to skin this cat. you'll need a way to remove & install the wrist pins and i don't know if i'd want the engine still being installed as a factor when figuring that out. _________________ 71 Ghia A/S - 88 Van A/T - 13 JSW TDI 6M/T |
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9895 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:38 pm Post subject: Re: Cylinder Replacement |
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Since the heads were off that recently you stand a chance of replacing the cyls and pistons without too much grief. No need to pull the engine, VW designed things such that you can do it in the car. I have. If this kind of VW work is new to you then trying to get it done in a rush isn't a good idea.
Mark |
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84tintop Samba Member
Joined: July 27, 2018 Posts: 13 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: Cylinder Replacement |
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I've rebuilt more traditional engines in the past and have friends who will guide me through any situations I come upon, but I'm hoping to make a long weekend of it within a years time. |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:03 am Post subject: Re: Cylinder Replacement |
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Before you loosen a bolt, hook up an oil pressure gauge.
Drive for awhile, make note of ambient temperatures, rpm's, speed and how long driven.
Your oil pressures at various points will tell you the health of your engine.
If you are running approximately 10psi +/- per 1,000 rpm........ you've got a good engine and don't need to bother breaking open the case for a rebuild.
A set of rings, pistons and cylinders if you wish, to restore compression and reduce oil use should give you many many tens of thousands of miles of motoring.
If you have a 2.1, get the rebuilt rods that use the 1.9 rod bolts. Don't ever reuse 2.1 rod bolts after you remove them.
There are indeed threads on here where people (such as myself) rebuilt and documented the rebuilding of just the top end of these engines.
Dave _________________ Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17014 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:49 am Post subject: Re: Cylinder Replacement |
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I haven't done a WBX rebuild in a long time. I have a memory of making a tool to get the wrist pins out. It's not like an air cooled where you have a little more access. I'm sure a search will reveal some procedures. _________________ ☮️ |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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mikemtnbike Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2015 Posts: 2780 Location: North Carolina
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17014 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:58 am Post subject: Re: Cylinder Replacement |
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It often depends on how hammered the circlip seat is to how easy the pins come out. Stuff some rags around the rod to keep the circlips from "flying" into the case. An assistant can watch where they fly to outside of the case. You can spend a lot of time searching for one that flew by. _________________ ☮️ |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9895 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:14 am Post subject: Re: Cylinder Replacement |
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Yes, a rigid tool to force out the pin may well be needed. VW even made a special reaming tool to clean up the possibly mashed area at the circlip groove so the pin could come out. A job that seemed simple on one wbx may be troublesome on another.
I would try hard to avoid pulling the rods to replace rings, or pistons. That opens cans of worms needlessly IMHO. Certainly I would avoid it with the engine still in the van.
Mark |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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dabaron Samba Member
Joined: June 21, 2018 Posts: 2558 Location: Philly, mang
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:08 am Post subject: Re: Cylinder Replacement |
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i would remove the engine - if you find excessive wear on rods at the crankshaft, you'll be pulling the engine anyway. might as well have it on your bench to make sure everything is good.
i am planning on rebuilding my engine. not sure if i'm cracking the case, but with it on the bench, if i need to, in the warmth of the garage is a better place and there is no excuse to not do it.
the Dave method is what i intend, pull the jugs, pull the rods from the crank, then remove the wrist pins.
hone the cylinders, clean the pistons, replace the rods with 1.9L rods, new rings and seals and your engine is a rockstar after that.
what heads are you using? _________________ 1991 Vanagon GL Camper
i had no idea i wanted to be a mechanic
"burnin oil and cookin coils" -- Destructo
BiWerks Design, LLC |
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9895 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:29 am Post subject: Re: Cylinder Replacement |
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Since I've personally put hundreds of thousands of miles on what were already high mileage 2.1 engines I regard the noise about the rod bolts as somewhat overblown. As further evidence of this I point to the relative dirth of examples of such failures here on the Samba where you would expect ever increasing reports and damage photos to be appearing as the miles get piled ever higher on our old engines.
Mark
djkeev wrote: |
Disagree about the rods and rod bearings, there is no can of worms that is opened at all.
On a 2.1, I would not sleep at night if I didn't pull the rods for new bearings and 1.9 bolts!
Dave |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:41 am Post subject: Re: Cylinder Replacement |
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crazyvwvanman wrote: |
Since I've personally put hundreds of thousands of miles on what were already high mileage 2.1 engines I regard the noise about the rod bolts as somewhat overblown. As further evidence of this I point to the relative dirth of examples of such failures here on the Samba where you would expect ever increasing reports and damage photos to be appearing as the miles get piled ever higher on our old engines.
Mark
djkeev wrote: |
Disagree about the rods and rod bearings, there is no can of worms that is opened at all.
On a 2.1, I would not sleep at night if I didn't pull the rods for new bearings and 1.9 bolts!
Dave |
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We all do what we are comfortable with after educating ourselves. Rod renewal is straightforward and "easy".
Anyway we all embrace and owna level of personal "risk".
I'm not going to go reinventing a wheel that someone has already has reported there being problems with, I'm going to put on a redesigned wheel.
You aren't wrong with your experience nor am I, but I disagree with your level of being "correct".
Dave _________________ Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9895 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:55 am Post subject: Re: Cylinder Replacement |
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Show me the evidence here, where people report van problems daily.
With all the dozens of Vanagons in my circle of family and friends over the many years I can recall exactly ZERO occurrences of rod bolt failures in 2.1 engines. Broken 3/4 slider hubs, oh yeah, many. Leaking rubber head gaskets, oh yeah. Broken alternator mounting brackets, oh yeah. Combustion gases in the cooling system, oh yeah. Plenty of failures have shown to be almost inevitable with enough miles, but not rod bolt failures. I guess we are just a lucky bunch of folks, dodging so many rod bolt bullets for so long. Hope our good rod bolt luck holds.
Mark |
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IdahoDoug Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010 Posts: 10239 Location: N. Idaho
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:04 am Post subject: Re: Cylinder Replacement |
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Those cylinders are an excellent quality item and I'd expect you to be able to simply hone them and toss in new rings. I did this last year while a machine shop tended to the bottom end with new bearings throughout, installed a new cam and lifters and the WBX is ready for another 30 years.
I can even provide you with the ball hone I used, as well as the brand and model of rings I used. I'll be reusing the hone on our Supra Straight Six project car this winter. I got some FANTASTIC tips here on Samba on properly cleaning the cylinders afterwards, by the way. That turned out to be remarkably important - remarkably. And I had no idea of the importance of that. Runs like a champ, burns no discernible oil, and oil pressure is terrific.
As for doing it in the frame - yes, doable since you're there with the heads off and it sounds like you've done that. However, having the engine on the bench lets you refresh some other things easily. Like a new oil pump for $50, etc. Feel free to start a thread on tips to do this as I suspect a lot of others would love to follow such a thread. I didn't need any special tools. For instance, the wrist pins are just knowing what order to knock them out with a brass drift and as mentioned removing the water pump for a hole in the right spot to do it. Not rocket science but again - much easier on the bench, frankly. _________________ 1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17014 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Cylinder Replacement |
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I'm inclined to agree with Mark on this. In racing over 30 years I have seen more than a few detached connecting rods. It is never pretty. You may find a broken bolt or a rod nut in the oil pan, but the failure most likely was not from a good quality fastener letting go.
Connecting rods usually let go as a result of a rod bearing starting to seize. This will happen even on a drysump engine with Carillo connecting rods. What causes a rod bearing to fail you may ask? The main culpret is detonation. What external causes lead to detonation ignoring compression ratio? Too much timing advance, too lean a mixture, fuel with a substandard octante, oil in the combustion chamber to name a few.
How? Envision a connecting rod bearing shell sitting on it's back with the open end up. Now measure across from side to side. Say that distance is exactly 2 inches across. Now take your small ball peen hammer and start hitting the center of the shell. You will find, that the dimension starts to shrink some. Now imagine you have .002, rod bearing clearance. A cylinder that starts to detonate, is just like you with your hammer. The bearing starts to close in on itself and will actually squeegee the oil away from the journal. Leading to spun bearing and then enough heat and away goes the connecting rod.
When the connecting rod begins to distort from heat, the fasteners may actually relax and loose there clamping force and can actually start to loosen off.
I would not reuse stretch bolts in a WBX, but I don't know that I would be quick to condemn all 2.1 rod fasteners. After all a rod through the case is a rod through the case. The last 2.1 I took apart had a rod bearing that was in the beginning stages of failing. Flame away. _________________ ☮️ |
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84tintop Samba Member
Joined: July 27, 2018 Posts: 13 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:39 am Post subject: Re: Cylinder Replacement |
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This is a lot of great info!
My engine is a 1.9l and my heads are the new AMS heads from Rocky Mountain Westy.
The last time I replaced piston rings only was on an old Ford small block, and I lost compression... turns out even though there was none of the usual signs of it, the cylinders had worn out of round along with the rings, the new rings were perfectly round and didn't fit the unseen wear. Cylinder 7 dropped to 30 psi!!! I ended up having it bored out to correct this.
Question: Is the above not a typical problem for waterboxers? Is a simple hone actually a safe bet? I have heard that repro cylinders are often substandard, so using the originals would be preferable.
Thanks,
Mike |
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IdahoDoug Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010 Posts: 10239 Location: N. Idaho
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Cylinder Replacement |
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What I did with my cylinders is bring them to the machine shop to have them measured for specs when I dropped the block, crank and new cam off to be serviced and set up. I forgot to bring the other spares but all of mine were easily in spec at 147,000 miles. You could do the same as they're easy to toss in a bag and bring to a machine shop and slip the machinist a 20 for a few minutes of his time. Rather like carrying 4 cans of Pepsi around!!
FYI the ball hone that worked extremely well for us is by BRM and called The Original Flex-Hone. Label says "2ZZD4" and "GB33424". It was so easy, I let my 15yo son do 3 of them while I supervised. They looked beautiful - deglazed and we were left with perfect even honing marks at the right angles and consistent from top to bottom. The rings seated nicely and with no drama. _________________ 1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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