Author |
Message |
1958ghia Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2001 Posts: 249
|
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:52 pm Post subject: 2021cc Bus Motor Cam Choice? |
|
|
Hey all, I’ve been doing some digging around trying to find cam choices that people like, and maybe I’m overthinking it so wanted some guidance! Help me choose a cam please.. Looking to have a good range of torque, run well at idle, but give me some ‘umph’ at highway speeds and through mountains to go camping in the Washington/Oregon area in my 1967 SO42 Westy!
Engine that I’m building:
2120cc (92mm TW Strocker P&C, 76mm crank)
Stock bus big nut trans with RGBs, potentially going with 3.88 R&P - thoughts??
Stock diameter tires, currently 185R14
Looking at Panchito 044 heads - any other ideas for high velocity for good torque?
Weber 40 IDFs with CB Panchito-matched intakes - haven’t figured out carb tuning.. May need to neck down a bit to increase velocity too??
What cam do you guys think? Reading on Berg that 1.25 ratio rockers really shouldn’t be used and either ratio rockets over 1.4:1 or get a cam that has lift needed... Agree? Disagree?
Thinking Engle 100 or 110, or Web 110/163??? Keep in mind I need torque in the 3000-4000 range for highway driving I think if the R&P is swapped..
Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions?? Thanks! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
74 Thing Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004 Posts: 7375
|
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:38 pm Post subject: Re: 2021cc Bus Motor Cam Choice? |
|
|
What exhaust?
May want to do a 78x92 thick walled, and run a web cam 218 for your torque with the CB Panchitos CNC ported. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
1958ghia Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2001 Posts: 249
|
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: 2021cc Bus Motor Cam Choice? |
|
|
Not sure on exhaust yet, I like the stainless stock-height bus ones but haven’t looked into how well they perform. Willing to spend a bit on exhaust..
Already have the case clearances for 76mm and have the crank, but do you think the Web 218 would still be a good match?
I forgot to mention I have purchased basically short block (without cam) and P&Cs, also have Spanish 40s too.
As for CR, could pick still since I haven’t done deck height measurements or purchased heads.
You thinking a bit more cam due to larger/flowing heads? Looking at the CB intakes that are cast to match Panchitos, not port matched if that matters much. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
madmike Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005 Posts: 5291 Location: Atlanta,Michigan
|
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:22 am Post subject: Re: 2021cc Bus Motor Cam Choice? |
|
|
Hard to beat a w110 _________________ 'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
scubaseas Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2013 Posts: 442 Location: ME & Texas, in a Bus or on a boat somewhere
|
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:25 am Post subject: Re: 2021cc Bus Motor Cam Choice? |
|
|
have that exact combo in my 1970 bus,
76X92TW, Panchitos, dual 40IDF, CSP Python (38mm- 1.5") plus 1.5" heater boxes, 28mm oil pump, full flow, balanced, etc...8.5:1 CR (your cam choice will determine your CR/ Deck height)
Have Web 218 and am very happy with it. Currently running 1.1:1 rockers Cam limits you to 1.25:1 max ratio. Cam exceptionally good mileage if cruising at 3600 to 3800RPM. Pulls very nicely through out range.
32 vents for carbs. 36 work OK at top end but not much torque down low.
Suggest venturi ring and balanced/welded fan. _________________ Al
08/1970 T2a Westphalia owned since 1980
ASE Master certification. 50 years pushing a wrench
Retired |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Brian_e Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009 Posts: 3228 Location: Rapid City, SD
|
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:38 am Post subject: Re: 2021cc Bus Motor Cam Choice? |
|
|
A couple years ago I did a 76x92 for a bus.
Here was my combo.
76x92
Tims S1 40x35 (about as close to a Panchito as you will get)
40mm IDF's, 32mm vents
FK7, 1.4 rockers
1 1/2" stainless sidewinder
8.8cr, .045" deck height
Great running engine. Super smooth and good power everywhere.
I also did a 78x92 with my 40x35 heads, a web 163, 1 1/2" sidwinder, 9.0cr. It was also very good, but made its power slightly higher then the FK7 engine.
If I was going to do another smaller stroker for a bus, I would run a web 218, and Panchitos w/matching manifolds. I have used the 218 or 218/119 in 4 different engines now ranging from 1915cc-2234cc. It works great in most everything. I like to think of it as the new age w110. It does everything a w110 can do, just better.
Brian |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Dan Ruddock Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012 Posts: 3575 Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
|
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:31 am Post subject: Re: 2021cc Bus Motor Cam Choice? |
|
|
Webcam 86+5 with 1.4 rockers. Will give 244 degrees @ .050" and .325" lift @ cam.
Best to get your lift from the rockers rather than the cam. Will be quiet, durable, torquey and with the relatively high lift it will have good pulling power.
I have this cam in stock.
Dan |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Teeroy Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2003 Posts: 3682 Location: Eastern WA
|
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:03 am Post subject: Re: 2021cc Bus Motor Cam Choice? |
|
|
See my combo and chassis dyno sheet for my Bus torque 2007 on page 10 of the engine combo stickey up top. Been together about 5 years now, runs queit (other than dual carb noise) and cool, pulls like a tractor from idle up to 5000 _________________ Pres. Rivercity VW Club www.rcvwclub.org
Founder Derr Wheat Panzers (DWP)
ARR #3
www.autosportsnorthwest.org |
|
Back to top |
|
|
1958ghia Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2001 Posts: 249
|
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: 2021cc Bus Motor Cam Choice? |
|
|
Awesome thanks for all the comments!!! This really points me in a couple directions. Scubaseas and Brian, did you run single HD valve springs on the Panchitos or dual?? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Brian_e Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009 Posts: 3228 Location: Rapid City, SD
|
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: 2021cc Bus Motor Cam Choice? |
|
|
1958ghia wrote: |
Awesome thanks for all the comments!!! This really points me in a couple directions. Scubaseas and Brian, did you run single HD valve springs on the Panchitos or dual?? |
I ran the CB singles on a set of Panchitos and after 14,000 miles they had less pressure then a stock spring, and they were causing valve float at 5200rpm and up. I switched to a different brand and all has been good since then, but it only has an additional 5,000 miles since the swap.
Next time that engine is in for a check-up, it will be getting Dan's beehive spring set-up.
Brian |
|
Back to top |
|
|
scubaseas Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2013 Posts: 442 Location: ME & Texas, in a Bus or on a boat somewhere
|
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:11 pm Post subject: Re: 2021cc Bus Motor Cam Choice? |
|
|
I am running dual springs on CNC Panchitos with matched intakes. 'Cause Berg said so for a Bus.
So far so good. Not been run long enough to really tell about wear with less than 1K miles. Am getting time on a chassis dyno tomorrow. Just cause. Numbers may be nonsense since it's a chassis dyno and the motor is still pretty stiff. Will let you know if interested.
Ditto what gearing I have. Been a while but have it written down someplace.
I can cruise all day at 70 MPH without running too hot (under 300*F). Above that it will start to heat up some on hills(300 to 320*F)
.. _________________ Al
08/1970 T2a Westphalia owned since 1980
ASE Master certification. 50 years pushing a wrench
Retired |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Dan Ruddock Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012 Posts: 3575 Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
|
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:32 pm Post subject: Re: 2021cc Bus Motor Cam Choice? |
|
|
Brian_e wrote: |
1958ghia wrote: |
Awesome thanks for all the comments!!! This really points me in a couple directions. Scubaseas and Brian, did you run single HD valve springs on the Panchitos or dual?? |
I ran the CB singles on a set of Panchitos and after 14,000 miles they had less pressure then a stock spring, and they were causing valve float at 5200rpm and up. I switched to a different brand and all has been good since then, but it only has an additional 5,000 miles since the swap.
Next time that engine is in for a check-up, it will be getting Dan's beehive spring set-up.
Brian |
This is all correct, single springs just don't last very long because of the out of control harmonics and the harder you push them the shorter life. Dual springs are much better because the two springs should have a good amount of interference fit. If the inner spring drops in loose into the outer, don't use them and get them done right from another supplier.
Beehives are even better yet because the guide boss is not weakened because cutting the boss is not necessary with beehives. Also harmonics are kept under control with the different size coils plus the extra coil adds even more spring life.
The single groove CB valves will not work with my kit so you will need to order the lost pan of Cheetos with three groove valves and don't have the guide bosses cut.
Dan |
|
Back to top |
|
|
scubaseas Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2013 Posts: 442 Location: ME & Texas, in a Bus or on a boat somewhere
|
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:44 pm Post subject: Re: 2021cc Bus Motor Cam Choice? |
|
|
[quote]
Quote: |
Beehives are even better yet because the guide boss is not weakened because cutting the boss is not necessary with beehives. Also harmonics are kept under control with the different size coils plus the extra coil adds even more spring life |
.
Sorry to hijack but may be of interest to OP
Dan... Los Panchitos have an installed valve height of 1.500 to 1.504".
Lift at cam of a Web218 is .460" Lift at valve is .500" with 1.1:1 rockers
Can your beehives be used with the Web218 on a stock Panchito head?
Brian... CB told me not to use single springs on Panchitos if the lift was .500 (.460X1.1) but to use their VW650 duals. I am running their "dual hi rev" springs. No bind, no issue but slightly lower pressures than the VW650. Maybe the Web218 is too much lift for their single HD springs? _________________ Al
08/1970 T2a Westphalia owned since 1980
ASE Master certification. 50 years pushing a wrench
Retired |
|
Back to top |
|
|
modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26743 Location: Colorado Springs
|
Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:53 am Post subject: Re: 2021cc Bus Motor Cam Choice? |
|
|
Lift at the cam is about .420 on a web 218
The .460 lift is with 1.1 rockers |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Dan Ruddock Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012 Posts: 3575 Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
|
Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:09 am Post subject: Re: 2021cc Bus Motor Cam Choice? |
|
|
[quote="scubaseas"]
Quote: |
Quote: |
Beehives are even better yet because the guide boss is not weakened because cutting the boss is not necessary with beehives. Also harmonics are kept under control with the different size coils plus the extra coil adds even more spring life |
.
Sorry to hijack but may be of interest to OP
Dan... Los Panchitos have an installed valve height of 1.500 to 1.504".
Lift at cam of a Web218 is .460" Lift at valve is .500" with 1.1:1 rockers
Can your beehives be used with the Web218 on a stock Panchito head?
Brian... CB told me not to use single springs on Panchitos if the lift was .500 (.460X1.1) but to use their VW650 duals. I am running their "dual hi rev" springs. No bind, no issue but slightly lower pressures than the VW650. Maybe the Web218 is too much lift for their single HD springs? |
CB's installed height is probably with spring shims. I can't see a problem with my springs @ .460 lift unless the valves are unusually short or the seats being too tall. Just remove the spring shims till you get as close as you can to my 1.700" installed.
Dan |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Dan Ruddock Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012 Posts: 3575 Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
|
Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:16 am Post subject: Re: 2021cc Bus Motor Cam Choice? |
|
|
Yes in my opinion, anything more than .430" lift is too much for singles. My spring kit will not work with panchitos if the single groove valves have not been swapped out for stock style three groove valves.
Dan |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7183 Location: Videbaek Denmark
|
Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:24 pm Post subject: Re: 2021cc Bus Motor Cam Choice? |
|
|
Dan Ruddock wrote: |
Yes in my opinion, anything more than .430" lift is too much for singles. My spring kit will not work with panchitos if the single groove valves have not been swapped out for stock style three groove valves.
Dan |
That depends heavily on the cam profile, lifter, push rod weight and rocker ratio.
Say the above menthioned 218 cam w approx 0,455" lift at the valve. Use lifters in the 70-80 gr. max weight range, quality aluminum pr´s, bolted shafts with stock rockers and some decent elephant feet adjusters. Then couple it to the menthioned Panchito´s with single springs that has 220 lbs @ 1" and installed at approx 1,44" with 140 lbs seat pressure. Such a set up will rev to approx 67-6800 rpm without valve float. By then the engine has stopped pulling long ago. Normal shift range is about 6300 with spirited driving. Set the rev limiter to 6500
Then there is no need what so ever for dual springs. It´s a left over from when Engle cams were dominant.
Same type of set up, but with sgl Oteva S90 springs and a Raptor 008 cam w. 1,4 rockers lifting the valve 0,540" revs to 7 grand without valve float.
My point is, dimension the spring pressure to what you really need with the parts you aree using. by doing that you release more power, get a quieter running engine, reduce wear and reduce heat. Win win in my book. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
scubaseas Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2013 Posts: 442 Location: ME & Texas, in a Bus or on a boat somewhere
|
Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: 2021cc Bus Motor Cam Choice? |
|
|
1948Ghia,
This may help. Or not. Alstrup and Dan have very good advice. A lot to be said about single springs if you can get the right height and spring rates. Too late for me as I took CB Performance's advice and have machined the heads and have "short" valves. If I did it all over I would prefer to have single valve springs. Not sure I would change from using the Web218 however.
Note the dyno was uncalibrated, engine cold (225*F cyl head temp, oil around 90*F) , only about 550 miles since build Two valves tight, one clogged air jet . The guy that has the dyno opined it might be around 115 to 120 HP if I put it on his engine dyno. Just a guess. making NO CLAIMS as to what the power and torque numbers are. Just showing the set up as having a pretty smooth power/torque curve at highway and up speeds. Pull was in 3rd gear. A/F ratio at wot around 12.8 to 13.2. Only did one pull (stuff to do). Just wanted a base line to work with as I may change to EFI due to air temp and altitude changes where I drive a lot. I really like this engine for a "freeway flyer" 70 Westy. Mileage last trip was reasonable at around 22 to 24mpg all level highway at 3400 to 3600RPM.
76X92TW, TF-1 case, Web218 108lc, CNC Panchitos with dual springs (out of the box), dual 40IDF, 32 vents, CSP Python (38mm- 1.5") plus 1.5" heater boxes, 1.5" cone, 2" muffler, 28mm oil pump, full flow, Cast cover, balanced everything, etc...8.5:1 CR. tapered aluminum push rods, 5.5" H scat rods, Scat light weight lifters, hoover mods, Scat swivel foot adjusters on cb forged 1.1:1 rockers, solid shafts, CB black box ignition on locked 009 clone.
_________________ Al
08/1970 T2a Westphalia owned since 1980
ASE Master certification. 50 years pushing a wrench
Retired |
|
Back to top |
|
|
1958ghia Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2001 Posts: 249
|
Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: 2021cc Bus Motor Cam Choice? |
|
|
You guys a SUCH a wealth of knowledge, and I can’t say thank you enough! This is great information, and I think I’ll be going down the Web 218/1.1:1 rocker combination! I am not looking for an all-out performance monster, but something more enjoyable to drive on longer trips. Gotta figure out some better sound deadening to keep the interior quiet, but I guess that the noise kind of goes with the experience!
Time to start buying some parts!! Al, I sent you a PM about your spare cam, shoot me a note when you can.
Thanks again!!
Kyle |
|
Back to top |
|
|
scubaseas Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2013 Posts: 442 Location: ME & Texas, in a Bus or on a boat somewhere
|
Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:25 am Post subject: Re: 2021cc Bus Motor Cam Choice? |
|
|
Quote: |
Stock bus big nut trans with RGBs, potentially going with 3.88 R&P - thoughts??
Stock diameter tires, currently 185R14 |
I have 002 box with 4.57 RP with .82, 1.26, 2.06, 3.80 and stock 185-14 tires. Good if you drive 65 to 70MPH a lot. If you drive a lot at 35 to 40MPH this is NOT the the combo for you. If you drive a lot at 55MPH this is not the gear combo for you. If you drive a lot at 55 to 60MPH I would go to .89 4th and use the 4.57RP. But that's just me.
The gearing of a 091 /2L Bus works well for the engine you are contemplating. You may find the following links helpful in your decision process.
http://www.type2.com/library/drivetra/091data.htm
http://www.ratwell.com/technical/Transaxle.html
Optimize for cooling. A venturi ring and engine speeds around 3200 to 3600 at your cruising speeds is ideal combo for fuel economy, wear and cooling capacity. _________________ Al
08/1970 T2a Westphalia owned since 1980
ASE Master certification. 50 years pushing a wrench
Retired |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|