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PhilKo Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2018 Posts: 19 Location: Modesto, Ca
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Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:52 pm Post subject: Dune buggy all over the road |
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Hi all!
I recently took out the steering box on my old dune buggy. The steering was really loose!
I took the box to a VW parts place and the guy told me it was probably from a 50s front end it was so big and old. He also said it was built so well I probably did not need to replace it just re-grease it.
I remembered reading that gear oil was best so I cleaned it out as best I could through the fill hole with brake cleaner and did not find any metal in the drippings:) Filled it with a high-quality gear oil, bench adjusted it and put it back in. I also changed the cloth/rubber bushing between the box and the steering wheel. The steering was nice and tight after. Note there is no steering dampener...
Now I am having a whole new issue, I am all over the road, especially on new blacktop! It is like it has a mind of its own and the back end sometimes feels like it is on ice. Now I know they are hard to drive inherently due to the short wheelbase but anything over 35 has me clenching my teeth as I must look DUI trying to stay in my lane.
Any ideas? Is it the lack of a steering dampener? |
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Letterman7 Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2004 Posts: 3198 Location: Downingtown, PA
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Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: Dune buggy all over the road |
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Well.. not enough information. Swing axle or IRS? Ball joint front or king pin? It's been years since I adjusted or greased a steering box, but IIRC you don't use a gear oil. I think it's a heavy grease, but someone will chime in with the right answer to that.
Short wheel bases *shouldn't* wander that much. Is it the front end that's wandering or the rear? Is the steering wheel moving with the wander? You need to check every single thing on the chassis - wheel bearings, lug nuts (are they tight?), shocks, camber/caster, etc etc.. even mismatched tires (or old school belted tires) can cause wander issues.
I wouldn't drive it at all until you go from one end to the other and check everything - and I mean everything. Somethin' ain't right - and it's your life and others on the line if you don't fix it. |
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surfnc Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2006 Posts: 948 Location: OBX, NC
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GS guy Samba Member
Joined: December 03, 2007 Posts: 968 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Dune buggy all over the road |
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Did you adjust it too tight? The gear mesh has to be adjusted with the input shaft dead on (steering range) center. That is exactly half-way between full left lock and full right lock. If adjusted with minimal backlash and off center it'll be too tight when centered. This is adjusted with the giant locking nut and recessed allen-looking bolt going into the case. Setting too tight will cause wandering problems going down the road - steering won't self-center, plus premature wear in the box.
Jeff _________________ 70's vintage Deserter GS buggy - undergoing transformation to Super GS! |
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PhilKo Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2018 Posts: 19 Location: Modesto, Ca
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Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: Dune buggy all over the road |
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Jeff,
I think you are on to something. I think bench tightening it I may have gone too tight. I could not do it on the buggy as the body is in the way.
The other things suggested look to be in good shape. Thank you for those suggestions! |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5481 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: Dune buggy all over the road |
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Have you had the rear axle tubes loose recently? Real alignment is important but early spring plates lack adjustment slots. Even if you haven't worked back there lately it could be rear alignment if a spring plate bushing recently broke. I'm going to guess you will be able to tell by looking as this sounds like a pre- '60 chassis.
I fill my early oil type boxes with strait STP, that oil additive that has been around forever and poors like cold honey. Most of the old boxes leak out the bottom seal. That super thick STP oil slows that problem down. In a buggy adding oil to the steering box isn't fun, but I don't think grease is proper answer for the early worm and sector boxes. The sector gear lacks the rolling "pumping" action. _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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andk5591 Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005 Posts: 16758 Location: State College, PA
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Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: Dune buggy all over the road |
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Once again - king pin or ball joint front end. Obviously you had issues before you pulled the box. Is the car new to you or are these new symptons? Did you check your tie rod ends, king pin or ball joint condition...Axle nuts loose? Camber set correctly? _________________ D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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PhilKo Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2018 Posts: 19 Location: Modesto, Ca
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Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: Dune buggy all over the road |
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Yes, it is new to me. I took the tie rods off, checked, cleaned and regreased the ends. They looked fine as did the rods themselves. I did not change their adjustment prior to putting them back on. I will check the kingpins. |
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PhilKo Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2018 Posts: 19 Location: Modesto, Ca
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Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:11 pm Post subject: Re: Dune buggy all over the road |
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My issue was too much play in the steering. I think in the end it came down to that bushing between the steering box and steering wheel. It literally was just loose cloth left. |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12743 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: Dune buggy all over the road |
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My Buggy is squirrely above 65 mph especially on old paved roads that the transports have rutted up. New beam, new ball joints, good tie rods, good matching radial tires, good steering box and recent 4 wheel alignment. I blame it on the offset on the front wheels and the short wheel base with the rear weight bias. |
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YDBD Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2017 Posts: 891 Location: Bavaria, Germany
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Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:38 am Post subject: Re: Dune buggy all over the road |
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Caster at between 6°-8° and steering damper will help a lot! _________________ '56 pan Dune Buggy since '69
don't live in the past...but when I did:
'67 bug
'64 baja
'60 dune buggy
'73 Personenkraftwagen Type 182 "Thing" |
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Hot Air Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2007 Posts: 664 Location: Baltimore, Maryland
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Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:02 am Post subject: Re: Dune buggy all over the road |
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I had the same problem , ,turned out to the new steering box from TRW, had play in the box. I could turn the steering wheel 2-3 inches before the wheels would turn when driving the car. Changed out the box with a stock one and problem solved, Maybe you stock box is worn out.. _________________ 73' Bug
85' Porsche 911 Carrera 3.2 |
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Dale M. Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 20380 Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:22 am Post subject: Re: Dune buggy all over the road |
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IF shortened chassis and small tires up front then original caster is no longer there, handling issues like wandering at speed was solved on my build by adding caster shims...My buggy is stable at any speed...
Dale _________________ “Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Vanapplebomb Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010 Posts: 5417 Location: Holland, MI
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Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:46 am Post subject: Re: Dune buggy all over the road |
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Letterman7 wrote: |
It's been years since I adjusted or greased a steering box, but IIRC you don't use a gear oil. I think it's a heavy grease, but someone will chime in with the right answer to that. |
Depends on the box. The later work and roller gear boxes, yes, grease is good. For the earlier (pre 1961???) worm and sector boxes, you want to use gear oil. _________________ 1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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goodsofar Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2017 Posts: 31
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Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: Dune buggy all over the road |
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+1 on the caster shims. I put a set on my buggy and it made a world of difference. I can cruise comfortably at 60 on good pavement now.
My next step is decent tires; I've got radial on front, bias on the back. |
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andk5591 Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005 Posts: 16758 Location: State College, PA
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Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:28 am Post subject: Re: Dune buggy all over the road |
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oprn wrote: |
My Buggy is squirrely above 65 mph especially on old paved roads that the transports have rutted up. New beam, new ball joints, good tie rods, good matching radial tires, good steering box and recent 4 wheel alignment. I blame it on the offset on the front wheels and the short wheel base with the rear weight bias. |
Double check your toe, should be 1/8" in at the front. Have had pro shops set the toe wring on several of our cars. Tire inflation can be another factor. Don;t need a lot of air. If you are over 18 in the front, drop it down. Our buggy is on a 63 pan. Sits a little nose up (which gives the effect of caster shims) and my only problem is that over 80 the front starts to lift a little... _________________ D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12743 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: Dune buggy all over the road |
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andk5591 wrote: |
oprn wrote: |
My Buggy is squirrely above 65 mph especially on old paved roads that the transports have rutted up. New beam, new ball joints, good tie rods, good matching radial tires, good steering box and recent 4 wheel alignment. I blame it on the offset on the front wheels and the short wheel base with the rear weight bias. |
Double check your toe, should be 1/8" in at the front. Have had pro shops set the toe wring on several of our cars. Tire inflation can be another factor. Don;t need a lot of air. If you are over 18 in the front, drop it down. Our buggy is on a 63 pan. Sits a little nose up (which gives the effect of caster shims) and my only problem is that over 80 the front starts to lift a little... |
I will do that. I am running 12 psi in the fronts. I left a set of castor shims with the Buggy at the alignment shop with instructions that I wanted the castor set between 6 and 8 degrees. The shims were sent back not installed so I need to find out why.
I put an adjustable beam in it hoping that by lowering it and getting the trailing arms level it would help this problem but it is worse not better! |
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andk5591 Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005 Posts: 16758 Location: State College, PA
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:38 am Post subject: Re: Dune buggy all over the road |
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Lets go back through everything . Get the front end up in the air. grab the wheel at 12 and 6 oclock and try to rock it. Do the same at 3 and 9 oclock. If it rocks in either postion, look to see what moves (look at steering knuckles, brake drum and backing plate, tie rod ends. Had a car in the shop recently that was "aligned" and was all over the road. Spindle nuts were loose.
And double check the rear toe. It should be in a little in the front as well.
If all is good and toe is correct, I would install the shims. All you do is loosen the beam and slip them between the lower beam tube and the frame head. _________________ D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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Dale M. Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 20380 Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:18 am Post subject: Re: Dune buggy all over the road |
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oprn wrote: |
andk5591 wrote: |
oprn wrote: |
My Buggy is squirrely above 65 mph especially on old paved roads that the transports have rutted up. New beam, new ball joints, good tie rods, good matching radial tires, good steering box and recent 4 wheel alignment. I blame it on the offset on the front wheels and the short wheel base with the rear weight bias. |
Double check your toe, should be 1/8" in at the front. Have had pro shops set the toe wring on several of our cars. Tire inflation can be another factor. Don;t need a lot of air. If you are over 18 in the front, drop it down. Our buggy is on a 63 pan. Sits a little nose up (which gives the effect of caster shims) and my only problem is that over 80 the front starts to lift a little... |
I will do that. I am running 12 psi in the fronts. I left a set of castor shims with the Buggy at the alignment shop with instructions that I wanted the castor set between 6 and 8 degrees. The shims were sent back not installed so I need to find out why.
I put an adjustable beam in it hoping that by lowering it and getting the trailing arms level it would help this problem but it is worse not better! |
Caster is determined by the angle of the frame head in its relation ship to the ground... The only fix for caster problems is changing angle of front beams if you have K&L front beams, if you have ball joints you have several options one is upper arm and ability to adjust caster in it's eccentric, but it is limited, had to put caster shims in my Auto-X car as I could not get enough caster with eccentrics.... My K&L front buggy runs shims from day new adjustable beams were first bolted on buggy at restoration time...
More drastic solution would be to cut a vee in tunnel behind frame head and close up vee and re weld to gain addition caster....
Most alignment places don't even know how to do a proper alignment on a VW beam front suspension....
Jack up buggy loosen two top bolt of beam about 3 turns, loosen bottom bolts about 6-7 turns, pry beam out at bottom, slip in shims, tighten everything up and drive it....should not take you more then 15 minutes to do the work... Probably takes longer to gather up the jack and tools than actually do the work...
Dale _________________ “Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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PhilKo Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2018 Posts: 19 Location: Modesto, Ca
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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: Dune buggy all over the road |
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Seriously, thank you all for helping me!!!!
I have certainly come to the right place and definitely learned something I did not know about until now:) I will order some shims today and try it out this weekend.
Thank you, and I will keep you posted:) |
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