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JasonB.
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2018
Posts: 23
Location: Alabama
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 Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Single seat all purpose build advise |
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We chopped the factory limiters off and measured the potential travel this weekend. It has the potential for about 9" before binding the tie rods. We got the steel torsion bars put back in and installed the new poly seals on the beam. We also got the brakes cleaned up and everything assembled. Now I'm just waiting on new link pins for final assembly, but they are back ordered from JBugs. As soon as I get them we will be able to assemble everything and set up the caster angle to build the lower frame and mounts.
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:57 am Post subject: Re: Single seat all purpose build advise |
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I like 6-8° + caster angle at the beam tubes (with the lower beam tube forward of the upper beam tube).
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Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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JasonB.
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2018
Posts: 23
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:09 am Post subject: Re: Single seat all purpose build advise |
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| dustymojave wrote: |
| Then after converting to link pin, you can get up to 10.25" of wheel travel like me with stock arms and 8" or 10" shocks. Or with bigger arms you can get as much as 15" of travel out of it. |
I found this quote from you in another thread. I've got the front end mocked up. I need to get some shocks ordered. Do you think a set of the bus shocks would be a good choice for some cheap shocks for it? If I pushed it, I could probably get close to 10" of travel out of the frontend, but I think I read somewhere that the bus shocks have 9" and that should be plenty for now.
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cbeck
Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2014
Posts: 2495
Location: high ridge, mo
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: Single seat all purpose build advise |
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Take the torsion springs out and reassemble/cycle suspension. That should get you extended and compressed lengths.
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My cut in half and rebuild thread
www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=647779 |
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:58 pm Post subject: Re: Single seat all purpose build advise |
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"Bus" rear shocks are 8" travel. KYB Gas-A-Just are fine I have them mounted on my race buggy in my avatar. To use 8" travel shocks get 10" of wheel travel you will probably have to replace the shock towers. There are kits available to replace the stock towers on a link pin beam. What I use are typically called 8" towers. Like this Latest Rage kit.
https://www.appletreeauto.com/SHOCK-TOWER-KIT-8-IN-AC430006-8/
[Thank you to Latest Rage and Appletree for letting me share those images of your products so maybe some folks will buy them from you. No charge for the advertising unless you make an issue of my using the image]
They are intended to mount 8" travel shocks using lower mounts that are extended so the shock mount bolt is nearly in line with the lower link pin. (that's what the weird hairpin looking pieces are for along with the small gussets and a pair of shock bolt tubes).
But I use them (8" travel shocks) with stock lower arms and I fabricate my own mounts out of tubing to get a little over 10".
The shock mount is made of 1" x .095 wall tube. The shock boss is 1/2 ID x 3/4 OD (you could also use 1" OD). The shocks are made for 12mm bolts so for that you have to make your own bosses out of something with a smaller ID and ream them to 12mm (.472")...or...ream the shocks to 1/2" like I do. The back leg of my shock mounts bolts to a double gusset at the frame junction with a bolt sleeve welded to the 2 gussets. The front leg bolts between the side plates of the stock shock tower cut a couple inches above the top beam tube. The side of the shock tower are then plated with 1/8" plate.
I've made other tall shock towers for 8" shocks using 1.5" x .095 tube welded to the cutoff stock towers, with another truss tube welded to the back of the shock mount boss at the top and the bottom end welded to the back of the stock shock tower behind the bottom beam tube.
If you use the Latest Rage 8" towers, you MAY need to cut off or trim the upper bump stop to get the travel you want.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.
Last edited by dustymojave on Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:04 pm Post subject: Re: Single seat all purpose build advise |
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Those weld on 8" towers are made of 1/4" plate, so that you cut the stock shock towers off flush with the top of the upper beam tube, then slide the tower kit over the ends of the beam tubes and weld it against the outer face of the stock shock tower.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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JasonB.
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2018
Posts: 23
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:38 am Post subject: Re: Single seat all purpose build advise |
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Dusty,
Thanks for the good info and pictures. I like what you did there. I'd like to copy your design for our buggy. Any chance you could tell me the length of your tube centerline to centerline and the distance from the centerline of the lower tube bolt to the centerline of the shock?
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:44 pm Post subject: Re: Single seat all purpose build advise |
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| JasonB. wrote: |
Dusty,
Thanks for the good info and pictures. I like what you did there. I'd like to copy your design for our buggy. Any chance you could tell me the length of your tube centerline to centerline and the distance from the centerline of the lower tube bolt to the centerline of the shock?
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From the top of the upper beam tube to the center of the upper shock mount bolt is 12". Same as the 8" shock tower kits (I know...confusion there...8" shock towers/12" from top of tube/8" travel shocks/10" wheel travel....  )
I just went out and measured that centerline of top beam tube to centerline of shock at full droop. Now...remember that dimension will vary with how far down the arm is drooped. The shock mount on the arm is doing an arc as the arm pivots. My Hi Jumper currently has no droop stop, so the droop here is controlled by the KYB 5530 Gas-A-Just shock. So you can use that. That beam is a stock beam with weld-on 8" plate towers. Those are the sort that the entire stock tower is removed before installing the plate towers. But the shape is virtually identical to my original towers that were like the ones I linked in my post above where they welded to the outboard side of the stock towers.
So...
From centerline of shock to centerline of top beam tube:
8" plate towers on my Hi Jumper - 3.0"
My fabricated tubular towers on my Baja - 3.375"
When you fabricate yours, you might place the bolt, if any, different than I did. So I used the centerline of the beam tube. In this case that bolt is within thousandths of that centerline.
Distance from top OD of top beam tube to center of upper shock mount bolt:
Both - 12"
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: Single seat all purpose build advise |
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Another note that I didin't mention earlier, but you may be able to see in those pictures...
The original stock shock tower that I cut off above the top beam tube I trimmed off the pinch welds and wrapped the tower with 3/16" x 1" cold roll steel bar and welded the full perimeter. It's actually very easy to form that strap in place as you tack the sides.
There used to be a kit available to reinforce the stock towers that way. It was sold by the same people who sold the 8" tower kits back when. Not the same people who sell the plate tower kits now though. It was pre-formed strap with the ends meeting at the bottom. The famous in the late 70s "ISS sponsored single seat buggy of Malcolm Smith and Bud Feldkamp that won so many Baja and other races (Tamiya made a radio control model buggy of it) used those strap reinforcements on the stock towers to win many races.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12848
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:08 pm Post subject: Re: Single seat all purpose build advise |
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I’m hoping this is just in the mock up stages, but I can tell you that there’s all sorts of issues here.
The caster angle isn’t going to work.
The lower beam tube needs to be tied in or the beam is just going to rotate.
The tie rods will interfere with the frame upon landing.
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Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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JasonB.
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2018
Posts: 23
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:05 am Post subject: Re: Single seat all purpose build advise |
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Dusty, thanks for the info. That's exactly what I needed!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
The caster angle isn’t going to work.
The lower beam tube needs to be tied in or the beam is just going to rotate.
The tie rods will interfere with the frame upon landing. |
You mean the mounts at the top and the tie rods won't be enough to hold everything in place?  Yes, definitely just mocked up. As a matter of fact, I'm glad you brought this up, because caster is the next thing on my list. Dusty posted the following earlier in the thread:
| dustymojave wrote: |
| I like 6-8° + caster angle at the beam tubes (with the lower beam tube forward of the upper beam tube). |
So, here is my question. Dusty referenced caster angle in terms of the beam tubes, which is certainly the way I'd prefer to measure. However, the old school books I bought all reference the caster angle in terms of the spindle. As I think about this, with the adjustable beam wouldn't the spindle caster change in relation to the beams as you adjust pre-load and raise the front? So, if I set it for 8° on the beams will that still be good with the front lifted all the way up on the adjuster? By the way, I set my adjusters for all lift with stock height at the lower end of the screw. |
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2019 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: Single seat all purpose build advise |
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| JasonB. wrote: |
Dusty, thanks for the info. That's exactly what I needed!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
The caster angle isn’t going to work.
The lower beam tube needs to be tied in or the beam is just going to rotate.
The tie rods will interfere with the frame upon landing. |
You mean the mounts at the top and the tie rods won't be enough to hold everything in place? Yes, definitely just mocked up. As a matter of fact, I'm glad you brought this up, because caster is the next thing on my list. Dusty posted the following earlier in the thread:
| dustymojave wrote: |
| I like 6-8° + caster angle at the beam tubes (with the lower beam tube forward of the upper beam tube). |
So, here is my question. Dusty referenced caster angle in terms of the beam tubes, which is certainly the way I'd prefer to measure. However, the old school books I bought all reference the caster angle in terms of the spindle. As I think about this, with the adjustable beam wouldn't the spindle caster change in relation to the beams as you adjust pre-load and raise the front? So, if I set it for 8° on the beams will that still be good with the front lifted all the way up on the adjuster? By the way, I set my adjusters for all lift with stock height at the lower end of the screw. |
Y'all done good there setting the adjusters for stock ride height to lifted ride height. 
Re Caster Angle...
Because the beam tubes which are the pivots for the trailing arms are closer together than the link pins which are the pivots for the spindle ends of the arms, the trailing arms are not parallel at any time, so the caster angle at the spindle changes substantially throughout the wheel travel. That becomes even MORE change when you cut off the stock travel limiters and allow more wheel travel. I'm not sure why the VW engineers did that, but it's true also of ball joint beams, Bus link pin beams, Thing ball joint beams, Porsche 356 beams, etc. So if you set the caster at the spindle, then the slightest bump or someone leaning on the fender, or in this case, top of the cage, will change that caster angle. So to keep it a consistent and truly measurable angle, I use the caster at the beam tubes. What I recommended above is an angle that I've found works well. Other folks may have their own ideas what works. Or you could measure a stock VW Bug the same way (across the face of the beam tubes).
And keep in mind that that caster angle of the beam should be measured at the expected angle of the frame at what is expected to be normal ride height. For instance, if you plan for the bottom rectangular tube rail of the frame to be level when the car is finished and sitting on a level shop floor, then that is how the frame should be sitting when you set the caster angle of the beam. But if that rectangular tube will be 4.5" lower at the front than the rear, then that angle is how the frame should be set when setting the caster angle of the beam.
I'm gonna let you figure out tie rod clearance a little by yourself before I jump in on that. But you should DEFINITELY be keeping that issue in mind while figuring out how you're going to fasten the beam to the front end of the frame. You'll need a rough idea of what you're doing for a steering box so you will know where the tie rods will be before you finalize how the beam fastens to the frame.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2019 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: Single seat all purpose build advise |
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I have a suspicion that the rear suspension will need some modification later too to match the front. Longer shocks and cut out the bottom rail to clear the axle to let it drop lower and replace that piece of frame with another higher up so it's above the rear axle.
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Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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JasonB.
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2018
Posts: 23
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: Single seat all purpose build advise |
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Link
It's been a long time. A few weeks after my previous post in 2019, my wife's parents were killed in a tragic automobile accident. In a matter of weeks we decided that we would move to the farm where my wife grew up and sell our house. The following months were a frenzy. Then, about the time we were getting settled back in, COVID.
We are finally all vaccinated and able to get together with my dad in the shop again. We've actually made more progress than this, but I don't have any pictures. I just realized that many of my old links no longer work and I can't edit the posts. I'll try to get as many pictures as I can uploaded to my gallery here. |
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JasonB.
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2018
Posts: 23
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: Single seat all purpose build advise |
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We've got the rear mocked up and are getting close to welding it in. I hope we'll be ready to start building an engine by Thanksgiving.
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JasonB.
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2018
Posts: 23
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:13 am Post subject: Re: Single seat all purpose build advise |
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I'm going to be welding the rear end to the frame this weekend. Before I do, I wanted to check here and see if someone could confirm that the transmission horns should be mounted parallel to the frame. I currently have the frame rails leveled and the horns are also level per the short level in the picture. Is this right? |
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Mike Fisher
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Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17969
Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:22 am Post subject: Re: Single seat all purpose build advise |
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Very cool 1100cc Kawasaki powered hot rod! 
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: Single seat all purpose build advise |
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Yep, I have an opinion...
This is a picture of a level with a 74 VW Baja Bug. Note that the car was leveled so the door sills were level before the level was applied to the frame horns.
I've previously posted the following (Note that this was a '74 Bug, pre-IRS cars have different yoke shapes):
| Quote: |
| Put a level on the door sill of a Bug or on the bottom rail of a rail frame (only works if the bottom of the frame is intended to be level. Some are not. With the frame right side up, and the torsion housing in place, set a level on the inner flange of the yoke with the bubble level. Measure from the top of the yoke flange to the bottom of the level. It should be 2"/5cm. |
Note that you CAN install the torsion housing so the yokes are at a higher angle. My Hi Jumper you see in my avatar was intentionally built with the torsion housing rotated up 6° from stock.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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JasonB.
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2018
Posts: 23
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:08 am Post subject: Re: Single seat all purpose build advise |
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Thank you, Richard. I'm glad I held off to get a response. It is interesting that you mentioned rotating it up a few degrees for the high jumper. My thought was that since the motor hangs off the transmission if I rotate it a little I get more ground clearance for the motor. I just wasn't sure how much was too much. I don't want to create other problems like oiling or something. I appreciate your input.
Here are a few more pictures as it currently sits.
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JasonB.
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2018
Posts: 23
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:48 am Post subject: Re: Single seat all purpose build advise |
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We got the rear end welded in place this weekend. I still have a lot of bracing to do, but it's centered and I'm pretty confident about the orientation. It was ~5 degrees based on the method from the previous post.
The front end is about 3" wider than the back, so I'm going to need some spacers for the rear. |
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