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Obi Van Kenobi
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Joined: August 28, 2018
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 Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:08 pm Post subject: Rebuilt 1.9 and phosphates |
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Wondering if anyone knows whether or not a rebuilt 1.9 engine still has the same issues with phosphates in coolant? Wouldn’t a better type rubber be used for the seal in a rebuild?
I had a mechanic replace my water pump and he said he put regular Prestone coolant back into it, so I was deciding if I should flush it urgently or not.
Thanks for any advice! |
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dobryan
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Location: Brookeville, MD
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danfromsyr
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:29 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1.9 and phosphates |
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the phosphates reacted with the aluminum not the rubber..
think most/all are phosphate free these days.. as most cars are aluminum and environmentalists don't like phosphates either.
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E1
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Location: Westfalia, Earth
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1.9 and phosphates |
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We've only run the VW/Audi coolant for years but just had a flush and fill done in Oregon with a brand unknown to us after I'd requested the VW stuff. Wish that's all they screwed up.
If we can't find more of that to top off with -- likely as we have a head gasket leak on our new bus -- we're going back to the stock coolant.
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‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
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Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
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dobryan
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E1
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1.9 and phosphates |
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Thanks Dave, what is your and others' consensus on intermixing coolant brands if they're all phosphate-free?
Here's what's now in our new van. Manufacturer claims it can be mixed with "any anti-freeze of compatible specs," whatever that means:
https://www.google.com/shopping/product/1?q=rowe+c...ZUQgjYIogQ
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‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman
Last edited by E1 on Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Obi Van Kenobi
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Joined: August 28, 2018
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1.9 and phosphates |
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| I called Prestone and they said there were phosphates in their regular coolant, but that it is safe for all makes/models. I specifically asked him about a vanagon engine and he said ( in a tone that made me think he has answered this vanagon question before) that there was no issues so long as distilled water is used. Still feel nervous with there being so many warnings about phosphates on all the VW forums and GoWesty articles. |
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E1
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1.9 and phosphates |
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My understanding of the early days of the Wasserboxer is that head gasket warranties went out of control early on. It's not hard to imagine VW getting on this full-force to find a solution asap, at any cost, to avoid this issue on every subsequent engine.
The story is the issue was phosphates ruining the gaskets and I will personally avoid phosphates like the Plague, regardless of any company claiming "it's fine."
I suspect selling coolant far outweighs unprovable liability on a company's priority list. It's, tragically, the new American Way of business.
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‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
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Jake de Villiers
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E1
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1.9 and phosphates |
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Thanks Jake, will it mix with the VW/Audi coolant?
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‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
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Mellow Yellow 74
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1.9 and phosphates |
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| danfromsyr wrote: |
| the phosphates reacted with the aluminum not the rubber. |
The phosphate corroded the steel studs that run through the water as well.
I would drain it, flush it and refill with G11.
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Howesight
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1.9 and phosphates |
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Having never done a WBX coolant re-seal, I reluctantly point out something our Quebec friend Ben always did when rebuilding or re-sealing WBX coolant gaskets: Use the sealant sold as "The Right Stuff" on both the block side and the cylinder head side of the U-gasket. The thinking, I suppose, is that the aluminum mating areas then will not be exposed to coolant.
As for coolant itself, the requirement of using distilled water cannot be over-emphasized. I have used the VW/Audi "blue" coolant (now a generation old) in all of our fleet with no corrosion issues on aluminum parts, including Toyotas, Fords, Audis, ATV's etc. Fingers crossed.
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1.9 and phosphates |
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All the ethylene glycol extended life coolants are phosphate free to the best of my knowledge.
The OEM vanagon engines failed at around 80,000 miles from pitting of the heads and then later again from the studs rusting and failing under tension. The original waterbox gaskets could also sometimes blow out with age causing a sudden loss of all coolant. |
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DanHoug
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1.9 and phosphates |
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i'll weigh in on this once and bow out as coolants become akin to religious discussions.. and i'll qualify that this is entirely only my opinion but i think i'm pretty well informed <grin>
phosphates control corrosion in iron, steel, lead/tin solder, and most aluminum components. it also controls etching and corrosion in drinking water systems and was why Detroit's lead level spiked... they removed the phosphate injection in the drinking water allowing aggressive water to leach metals including lead.
the bad deal with phosphates is they precipitate in the presence of calcium. so you both form a scale, either causing hot spots on the cylinder liners and heads, AND you drop out the corrosion inhibitor of the glycol mix. this does NOT happen if you don't add hard tap water and use distilled/deionized to your system but my guess is VW wanted to eliminate that variable by specifying 'phosphate free'.
here's my bottom line... i think there would be zero problems if you used phosphate containing antifreeze if you mixed it with distilled water and changed it every 2 years. standard practice. but since phosphate free alternatives abound, might as well use it and feel all warm and snuggly.
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60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
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Abscate
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:49 am Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1.9 and phosphates |
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I did the calculation once and the hardest water consumes 1% of the scavengers in phosphate based glycol.
It's not the water mix that scales, it's the engine metals overtime
You could mix with very hard tap water , change every two years, and be fine.
The comment from the company that distilled water is needed isnt based on science.
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:33 am Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1.9 and phosphates |
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| Abscate wrote: |
I did the calculation once and the hardest water consumes 1% of the scavengers in phosphate based glycol.
It's not the water mix that scales, it's the engine metals overtime
You could mix with very hard tap water , change every two years, and be fine.
The comment from the company that distilled water is needed isnt based on science. |
I have an old Toyota Land Cruiser that I last changed the coolant in three decades ago, the coolant still looks and tests fine. I used distilled water in the mix and add coolant conditioner to it annually. The radiator out of my '91 Multi with 300K miles on it doesn't look all that bad either, the '91 too has seen few coolant changes (essentially only when something like the coolant tower has busted or the engine was pulled), but has always gotten distilled water and an annual dose of cooling conditioner. The original heads on the 2.1 liter were never pulled until the engine was removed from service because of rod bolt stretch at 180K miles. For the $25 or so it cost me in distilled water to keep my several Vanagons in good shape over the decades, I consider the money I have put into distilled water very well spent.
Original '91 radiator with 300k miles, all tubes still open:
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