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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76939 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:36 pm Post subject: I should of seen it coming |
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So i'm doing a top end rebuild on a 1600 for a customer. It was burning oil and had low compression.
The case was painted silver and it was flaking off. I removed the exhaust, heater boxes, intake and tin. I removed the valve covers, rockers and then i saw it. Stamped in the head under the rockers... GEX.
So I removed the cylinders and the rings were all over the place. Oil ring with the gap at the bottom and compression rings within an inch of each other.
Oh... two of the top M8 case bolts were missing.
Otherwise the bottom end seems OK.
So 2 cans of brake parts cleaner, a wire brush, some steelwool and an air compressor and the case was clean enough and most of the flaking silver paint was off.
Not sure what to do with the heads. The shop owner wants to replace them with new. But they are Brazilian VW castings and I suggested we have the machine shop check them out and rebuild if they are OK. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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FeelthySanchez Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2011 Posts: 1349 Location: Now is that a real poncho, or a Sears poncho?
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Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: I should of seen it coming |
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Glenn wrote: |
..... two of the top M8 case bolts were missing. |
Just a guess: ya found 'em inside a cylinder? _________________
modok wrote: |
I would like if you had enough clue to communicate what you are doing. |
Ryan Tucker wrote: |
Enough clue..Whats that mean? |
OldIronSpine wrote: |
I'm not sure how compression works.
Turbos don't produce torque, they produce HP. Instead of torque.
The real problem with NA engines is you don't hear the nice whine of the turbo as it spools up.
Before I commit, I'm going to do more research because I don't really know what piston rings are. |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76939 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: I should of seen it coming |
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FeelthySanchez wrote: |
Glenn wrote: |
..... two of the top M8 case bolts were missing. |
Just a guess: ya found 'em inside a cylinder? |
That would be a trick.
One was missing the nut that hold the intake center section and the other was missing the entire stud. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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wcfvw69 Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004 Posts: 13389 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:05 pm Post subject: Re: I should of seen it coming |
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I'm not sure what's worse in the VW world? GEX engines or Cardone "rebuilt" distributors. _________________ Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76939 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: I should of seen it coming |
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wcfvw69 wrote: |
I'm not sure what's worse in the VW world? GEX engines or Cardone "rebuilt" distributors. |
Yes, Cardone is the "GEX" of distributors. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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Xevin Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2014 Posts: 7635
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Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:30 pm Post subject: Re: I should of seen it coming |
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Hate, when that happens.
Just sweep it all in the trash next to mine and hit reset
Case was not usable and VW heads had some cracks as well. Heads might have been salvageable. But the thought of rebuilding on a GEX rebuild was never going to happen. Those three stamped Scarlet letters have no place on an engine I’m going to run. Hope it works out for you. _________________ Keep on Busin'
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
Clatter wrote: |
Damn that Xevin... |
skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
I respect Xevin and he's a turd |
SGKent wrote: |
My God! Xevin and I 100% agree |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26789 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: I should of seen it coming |
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That's nothing.
The rods should be bent and all different lengths, big ends hones tapered, and caps put at an angle and sanded so they are of uneven width.
The crank needs to have a bunch of runout on the gear area, and the heads need to have welds over the cracks and a step machined into them. Regrund cam with no taper and regrouind lifters not rotating, and that takes out the lifter bores.
Glenn, so far you have the best gex engine I've ever heard of.
Lucky, or, you have a lot more checking to do. |
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ALB Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2008 Posts: 3483 Location: beautiful suburban Wet Coast of Canada
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Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: I should of seen it coming |
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Are the case halves matching? _________________ On a lifelong mission to prove (much to my wife's dismay) that Immaturity is Forever!! |
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FreeBug Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012 Posts: 4278 Location: deepest, darkest Switzerland
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Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: I should of seen it coming |
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Not defending GEX, but as for the ring indexing, you can set them up as you want, but once the engine is running, they're spinning around beyond your control. Where they land, nobody knows...
Oh, and btw, "should HAVE", means something, "should OF" just doesn't make sense. Sorry, I used to teach English.. , and haven't had my tea yet.
Wow, what a time saver..I was thinking you didn't need ALL the case bolts, now we know the ones on top of the case are just for show. |
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slalombuggy Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2010 Posts: 9147 Location: Canada
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Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:16 pm Post subject: Re: I should of seen it coming |
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It will be interesting to see how big the line bore is worst I've seen from GEX is 4th over. Not sure where they get bearings. I would have stopped as soon as I saw the GEX stickers and dumped it in the steel bin. |
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YDBD Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2017 Posts: 891 Location: Bavaria, Germany
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Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:45 pm Post subject: Re: I should of seen it coming |
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I must have lucked out. I bought a GEX 1835cc in 1990 for my '64 baja, ran it from Fresno to Pismo and back more than twice, got rear ended in '92, smashed the crank pulley-bent the horns-salvaged the body put the engine in my '60 buggy. Back to Pismo several times, shipped it to Okinawa Japan in '99, refreshed top end. Sold it to a friend, who kept it a few years and sold it to another who kept it until about 2013. Engine never gave out and was strong as ever.
_________________ '56 pan Dune Buggy since '69
don't live in the past...but when I did:
'67 bug
'64 baja
'60 dune buggy
'73 Personenkraftwagen Type 182 "Thing" |
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Xevin Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2014 Posts: 7635
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Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: I should of seen it coming |
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slalombuggy wrote: |
It will be interesting to see how big the line bore is worst I've seen from GEX is 4th over. Not sure where they get bearings. I would have stopped as soon as I saw the GEX stickers and dumped it in the steel bin. |
Ahh yes. What slalombuggy says is what we found. In addition to the oval developing.
_________________ Keep on Busin'
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
Clatter wrote: |
Damn that Xevin... |
skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
I respect Xevin and he's a turd |
SGKent wrote: |
My God! Xevin and I 100% agree |
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FreeBug Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012 Posts: 4278 Location: deepest, darkest Switzerland
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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:34 am Post subject: Re: I should of seen it coming |
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I know we all like to crap on GEX, but I was also thinking about how many VW's were saved and kept on being used because cheap, reliable engines were available.
By reliable, I mean that subjected to stock use no more than 1 in 10 failed, probably. Think of the volumes they were building, I'm pretty sure the majority of those things actually worked. |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12740 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:01 am Post subject: Re: I should of seen it coming |
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FreeBug wrote: |
Not defending GEX, but as for the ring indexing, you can set them up as you want, but once the engine is running, they're spinning around beyond your control. Where they land, nobody knows... |
If this is true then every mechanic I've known, every automotive instructor, every book in print including factory service manuals are all wrong.
Just sayin'... |
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YDBD Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2017 Posts: 891 Location: Bavaria, Germany
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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:32 am Post subject: Re: I should of seen it coming |
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oprn wrote: |
FreeBug wrote: |
Not defending GEX, but as for the ring indexing, you can set them up as you want, but once the engine is running, they're spinning around beyond your control. Where they land, nobody knows... |
If this is true then every mechanic I've known, every automotive instructor, every book in print including factory service manuals are all wrong.
Just sayin'... |
Yup, I believe they are set that way in "hopes" during break in there they will stay. But they don't, not saying they all will move, but highly likely the rings will not remain in those positions. _________________ '56 pan Dune Buggy since '69
don't live in the past...but when I did:
'67 bug
'64 baja
'60 dune buggy
'73 Personenkraftwagen Type 182 "Thing" |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76939 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:54 am Post subject: Re: I should of seen it coming |
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modok wrote: |
Glenn, so far you have the best gex engine I've ever heard of.
Lucky, or, you have a lot more checking to do. |
The endplay is good and the rods "feel" right. The customer can't afford a complete tear down and what might be found. It ran good before so we'll do the top end and send him down the road.
BTW, the case halves do match and its a T3 case converted to T1. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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Bugsy61 Samba Member
Joined: March 20, 2011 Posts: 256 Location: Peoria, Illinois
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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:55 am Post subject: Re: I should of seen it coming |
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If I may ask a stupid question, how do you tell if the case halves match or not? |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76939 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:12 am Post subject: Re: I should of seen it coming |
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Bugsy61 wrote: |
If I may ask a stupid question, how do you tell if the case halves match or not? |
They are stamped on the top of the bell housing with a number. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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FreeBug Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012 Posts: 4278 Location: deepest, darkest Switzerland
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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:14 am Post subject: Re: I should of seen it coming |
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oprn wrote: |
FreeBug wrote: |
Not defending GEX, but as for the ring indexing, you can set them up as you want, but once the engine is running, they're spinning around beyond your control. Where they land, nobody knows... |
If this is true then every mechanic I've known, every automotive instructor, every book in print including factory service manuals are all wrong.
Just sayin'... |
Sorry, dude, they spin around 4-5 rpm, I've been told, and the rpm is affected by the cross-hatch angle of the cylinders, load and rpm of the engine.
Here, first result under "piston ring rotation":
https://www.highpowermedia.com/blog/3954/rotation-of-piston-rings
With those amounts of kinetic energy going around, how could they NOT turn? |
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FreeBug Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012 Posts: 4278 Location: deepest, darkest Switzerland
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Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:18 am Post subject: Re: I should of seen it coming |
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Bugsy61 wrote: |
If I may ask a stupid question, how do you tell if the case halves match or not? |
Sometimes it's just visually apparent, one side is 40 years old, with the appropriate levels of oxydation, and the other is shiny, for instance..or maybe one side has the holes for the support bar, the other not, etc..
Case halve which have lived and grown old together look alike. |
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