Gearbox parts condition? (now a rebuild thread)

[nilza]

*EDITED** I noticed this kept getting bigger so it was time for a rename, history and introduction.

My name is Nils, I live in Australia and own one of very few westys in the country (due to either trakka having the contract to convert here, or possibly because there are so few RHD westys)
I use my bus alot. It is a RHD converted 1989 Syncro westfalia multivan that my better half only refers to as Roy. I don't like to cook inside so he has a weekender/multivan interior, 3 knobs and a DJ motor.

I have had the van in it's current state for about 3 years and have fixed and traveled so much. The Gearbox always jumped out of first if you back off hard, but recently developed a whine and a tendency to jump out of 4th. So it was time for a teardown.
Gearbox builders that want to take on a syncro are very slim on the ground here and any kind of guarantee is out of the question. My background is in aeronautical maintenance, so thought I would give it a shot.

Using the vast experience group on the samba I would really appreciate feed back and guidance with the parts within, as the Bentley doesn't exactly provide negligible damage limits for these parts. **

------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi guys delving into my first syncro gearbox fix.
Not sure whether I will be just fixing the major defects or doing a full rebuild, guess that is dependent on how much is wrong with it.

Anyways looking for a second option on ring and pinion wear.
Pictured is the only bit of damage present on the pair. My guess is a piece of the shift fork liniar bearing went though there.
The R&P look to be the factory due to the lack of markings on the outside of the ring and has 340000km to date.
Soooo, one mark equals replacement?

_________________
still floating around the web somewhere

[11BC2]

Looks like spalling to me, which means replacing is necessary.

[gears]

Yes, you should absolutely replace this R&P ..
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com

[nilza]

Thanks for the responses fellows, I guess I knew that was going to be the answer. Having only one mark was killing me.

Gears, looks like I will be sending you a message in the next few days in regards to a 4.86 (and probably some other parts too by the time this thing is apart)
_________________
still floating around the web somewhere

[DanHoug]

Gears- i'm not doubting you, just trying to learn... why would one mark on the pinion condemn this set? how many more miles do you estimate this set, as is, could go? i'm wanting to understand how one spalling mark on the pinion with no marks on the ring gear condemns the set because i expect to run into this on my second or third rebuild i attempt. i'll assume mixing a new pinion with a used ring gear is totally out.
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com

[gears]

If I were on a S. America safari and saw this via boroscope, I'd likely try to make it home .. but that R&P certainly can't be reused in any serious "rebuild". The case hardening is suspect, and the other pinion teeth can be expected to soon look the same.

A new pinion paired to a used ring gear might be "doable", but makes no sense. No one sells separate pinions .. they all come with a paired ring gear.
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com

[Zeitgeist 13]

Nothing a little JB Weld can't fix.
_________________
Casey--

'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik?

[Sodo]

[?Waldo?]

I believe that the one gouged tooth will hit every 7th tooth on the ring gear and will place undo wear on each of those teeth... but the tooth count on the ring is not divisible by 7 so it will hit different teeth the next time around. The teeth on the ring gear that were hit last rev by the gouged tooth on the pinion will all hit the same new tooth on the pinion this time around and transfer some of the wear to the second tooth... etc... and on and on as the wear cascades around both gears. One of two events will likely then occur. Either the teeth will all wear to a new nice stable wear pattern, (ha ha), or both gears will be progressively (exponentially) reduced to rubble.

[Waldi]

First you should check whats the reason for the pitting. Pnionbearing clearance, wrong adjusted pinion, overpovered by engine or g-gear use ?

[nilza]

Thanks for the input guys, definitely know where you are coming from. The snowball effect such damage could create, just had to ask the question as I am novice at this job and would hate for someone to point out "that would have been fine" after I replaced it.

Which pitting are we talking about Waldi?
_________________
still floating around the web somewhere

[Waldi]

we are calling damage like yours pitting. This kind of damage happens for a reason i asked above.. Mosly worn out bearing, but also possible the other 2.

[DanHoug]

so what is the red gear oil brand we see in the photo? Redline? since some of that Redline isn't rated for hypoid gears, could this have been a contributing factor? is that the type of damage that may occur using a non-hypoid gear oil?
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com

[gears]

[Waldi]

no,to Dan.
And no to Paul.

[Jake de Villiers]

[Sodo]

Paul is thinking 340,000 miles. ????
Many use “400,000 miles” so if it had 340,000 mile (plus damage....) its toast.
But it has 210,000 plus damage and is toast anyway.

It takes more than miles to age an R&P but miles is a component.

1) A van has only 90 HP, always has clean transaxle lubricant, drives slower. And the owner rebuilds the trans before it makes noise, before it pollutes the lubricant, destroying valuable shafts, valuable R&p etc.
2) another van has 180HP, drives fast, camper with heavy loads and never checks condition of the lubricant. By the time he notices the noise it’s been running the last 15,000 miles with a huge afro on the magnet, circulating the worst grinding compound you can imagine.

#1 is “one person”, somewhere. Nobody knows this person.
Most vans are #2.
I did #2 not so long ago.
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[nilza]

Wow, alot of questions to answer.

The red oil is indeed swepco 210

340000 Km not miles, sorry about the confusion I'm in Australia.

The visual mark pictured my guess is from the broken piece of linear bearing from the shift forks that I am yet to locate.

The gearbox was pulled down due to popping out of first and a increasing bearing noise on my last trip. I nursed it home 500miles (ish) with the noise. I considered the pinion bearing to be the cause, maybe explains the less than ideal contact too?
_________________
still floating around the web somewhere

[Waldi]

[MarkWard]

Hello, Paul "Gears" and Waldi, have a lot of experience rebuilding these transaxles. I have read a lot of their posts. Experience is something "learned". You can read and watch all the videos you want, but there is a "feel" you just can't get without getting your hands dirty.

I have had professional builders build my vanagon 4 speed and my front differential on my syncro project, but decided rather than send out my syncro transaxle, I would tackle it myself. I have quite a bit of experience building other types of transaxles and racing transmissions. I have also setup some conventional differentials. I am also a retired factory trained VW technician. Syncro transaxles are new to me.

My advice would be to go about rebuilding this one with the ring and pinion. Not for the years of trouble free life, but to gain some experience. I purchased a few of the available tools, but have had to make numerous other tools that are NLA. They are usually easily fabricated, but I have access to welders, lathes, mills etc. Along with a lot of different diameter tubing for press sleeves.

You will have a lot of hurdles to overcome and why not learn on this one? You will learn what works and does not work, build your arsenal of special tools and get some of the "experience" you seek.

I have already worked out how to add a main bearing retainer plate, how to machine the case for the aftermarket splash plates, and I have made a few mistakes along the way that I caught, but won't make again.

I purchased parts from Paul, "Gears" and from Weddle. Paul was very helpful and we are lucky to have experienced rebuilders willing to share their experience with us. It is my intention to regear this one after I get the TDI engine up and running. Good luck on the rebuild and gaining some experience.
_________________
☮️