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t3kg
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rustyfastback
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Joined: July 31, 2002
Posts: 839
Location: Georgia
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 Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: sticky headlight button in pushbutton unit |
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| I always spray some white lithium grease where the buttons slide when I have the push button switch out of the car. I would guess you could spray some through the front of the buttons also. |
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ibjack
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Joined: February 06, 2002
Posts: 2105
Location: Imperial Beach CA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:57 am Post subject: Re: sticky headlight button in pushbutton unit |
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Scott, like Pete said just spray some grease in there and it will be fine
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t3kg
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KTPhil 
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Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 33990
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: sticky headlight button in pushbutton unit |
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| How would a teflon or silicone spray work? Both would lube, neither conducts, and both are probably safe for the plastics inside. |
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22402
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: sticky headlight button in pushbutton unit |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| How would a teflon or silicone spray work? Both would lube, neither conducts, and both are probably safe for the plastics inside. |
That would probably work. The old plastic that those switches were made from is quite different from today's plastic though. It's almost like it has a different polymer make up to it.
Scott, I don't blame you for not wanting to take it apart, as there's a lot of moving parts inside it.
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t3kg
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Location: Los Angeles
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t3kg
Samba Member
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Posts: 2712
Location: Los Angeles
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t3kg
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 33990
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: sticky headlight button in pushbutton unit |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: sticky headlight button in pushbutton unit |
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A couple of items.
First...and take this from someone who deals with dielectric materials of all types for a living
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| Thanks. I was thinking about using dialectric grease but if you want to get really confused then start reading pro and con posts about dialectric grease online. There seems to be no consensus on how to use it or whether it's beneficial or harmful to conductivity. |
There is no "apparenet" consensus with dielectric grease....in these forums...because 90% of those speaking of it have no idea whatsoever how it works and what dielectric means.
I can tell you that the electronics industry, dielectric grease manufacturers and anyone in the manufacturing supply chain......has no confusion as to what dielectric grease...or dielectric ANYTHING is...and does.
And part if what confuses people...is stupid...f*cked up...asinine...online definitions like this one:
The f*cked up part of that definition...is that a dielectric....TRANSMITS NO ELECTRIC FORCE!....its purely an insulator....as the definition notes. This however...does not mean that it is 100% a non-conductor. Here is how it works
More precisely....it is a POLARIZING material. It keeps + and - apart by "dielectric polarization". It literally turns positive and negative electrons away from each other. It changes their attraction by being technicality..."bi-polar".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric
Either way.....IT IS AN INSULATOR...it has no business whatsoever between two pieces of metal that are supposed to be making contact to transmit electricity. Even a film a handful of atoms thick will screw up connections that are sensitive.
People have gotten away with it (and even more haven't)...and got confused as to the proper use of it eons ago...because they saw it used on LARGE high amperage connections in industrial and marine use.
Those terminals however.....have many pounds of latching power....and for the most part squeeze 95% of the grease out of the way. The remaining dielectric grease surrounding these OUTSIDE OF these connectors....then acts as an INSULATOR...to prevent high amperage arcing between big fat terminals in close proximity to each other.
Shade tree mechanics saw this and figured that if grease is good for big ole marine terminals...and tractor trailer power couplings...it oughta be groovy...for my lil ole 2mm thingamajiggers.......NOT!
Next.....DO NOT EVER USE ANYTHING WITH GRAPHITE INSIDE OF AN ELECTRICAL SWITCH OR MOTOR!
Graphite is a major conductor. I have seen it literally light electric motors on fire when used as a lube...anywhere where it can flow between a positive and negative.
Back in the 1980s...GM had a BIG problem at dealers when they lubed their squealing blower motors with graphite paste. It got hot...it ran...dripped...and connected the positive pole brush to ground....ZAP!
Back to your push button switch. The main base plate of that switch is technically a composite Bakelite.
It should not be harmed by any good Non-chlorinated circuit cleaner.
The buttons....appear to be either ABS...or early nylon 6. The ABS will get eaten by 90-99% isopropyl alcohol. The nylon will not but will be in bad shape from age alone by now. It gets crusty.
But that switch "type"...mostly has lots of metal detents and springs. Most of your "drag" is probably purely mechanical and has little to do with the "electrical" contacts themselves...so you need something that can lube the mechanical part ...is good on most any plastic...and also can be used safely on the contact surfaces themselves...if not actually improve their operation.
A product like this:
https://www.electrolube.com/pdf/contact-lubricants-brochure-electrolube.pdf
Read through this brochure. Take your time. These guys know their sh*t...and make killer products. Notice under Automotive applications..."dual use products". This is what you need.
Note they also make one that is ideal for contact slip rings under steering wheels.... 
Scrolling down...the product I would use in their lineup is either the EML or SWC...leaning more toward the SWC
https://www.electrolube.com/products/contact-lubricants/swc/contact_cleaner_lubricants/
....and its been superceded
Here is their USA distributor list. It has a "by state" function down below
https://www.electrolube.com/distributors/1/
Midwest Tech services...you can get the EML for about $20 a spray can.
In lieu of the above...the Caig De-Oxit products are just superb.
You would clean the switch first with a non chlorinated contact cleaner. Just a cleaner...like CRC.
Then buy this product.... https://caig.com/fader-f-series/ and spray it on.
It is a contact cleaner, lubricant and enhancer. Best in the industry for sliding circuits like rheostats. Made for plastics.
Ray |
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rustyfastback
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Joined: July 31, 2002
Posts: 839
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: sticky headlight button in pushbutton unit |
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| Recently fixed a push button on a friends car. White lithium spray grease works smooth as silk. The one I just fixed for my '64 notchback had some really sticky buttons. After a good cleaning I used white lithium spray on it also. Works smooth as new. The plastic on the push button switch is more like what the old school Bosch brown distributor caps are made of & hold up better than newer style plastics. |
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t3kg
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Location: Los Angeles
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t3kg
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: sticky headlight button in pushbutton unit |
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| t3kg wrote: |
Thanks Ray, very helpful. I was thinking Deoxit but they have such a wide range of products with somewhat overlapping applications — good to have an informed recommendation. I read through the Electrolube info and I'll consider it, but I'd like to avoid buying a lot of something I may only use once.
Given what you've said re: dialectrics, I wonder what you make of this CRC video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNiEJfgS8cE
I get that with tight tolerances there may be no issue with conductivity, but it still seems like an iffy way to use the product.
And I hear you when it comes to graphite. I've seen demonstrations where drawing a line with a pencil completes a circuit. Not something I would do. |
CRC....gets about a 90% grade on what they did in that video.
Notice:
1. On the fuel injection plug terminal...they used a stripe of lube.....around the outside of the plug near the silicone gasket...nowhere near the connectors. While this is an absolutely correct usage of it.....its also risky. If you get it on fine dual cantilever terminals like that by accident....and there will be no end to the issues it causes. It has silicone in it. Silicone is a dead short insulator....not even a dielectric.....but a full on insulator.
Also....why would you need it on a modern weather pack plug like that? They ALL have silicone gaskets. If one is leaking....replace it. You can buy them or get them at the dealer.
2. On the headlight bulb....notice they put a stripe around the o-ring ONLY......and nowhere near the bulb or the electrical connector. This is also good....but again...100% unnecessary on an o-ringed bulb....whose plug in electrical connector also has a silicone gasket. If either part is leaking....replace the seal for pennies....dont goop it.
3. The spark plug boot usage....is 100% incorrect BS. You do not fill the void boid of the boot......just smear a small, thin amount around the opening of the boot.....to keep the silicone boot from sticking to the ceramic and keep moisture out. Anything else is a waste.....and a mess....and if any if the snap clips on the plug connectors is loose at all....you get a poor connection. But...most snap tight enough to squeeze away grease....just like the heavy marine or industrial connector....you generally get away with it....but its an incorrect usage. This is where they lost 10%.
Oh.....and do not try that spark plug and grease thing with a modern car. Virtually everything European and many Asian and US cars....north of 2000.....use ion sensing for the ignition and fuel injection...through the spark plug. Even a smear of grease between plug and coil connector...and for sure the use of anti-seize or oil on plug threads....will screw those systems up....cause odd idles, rough starts and poor mileage.
Lithium grease....dang....please do not use this on plastics. "White lithium " is a generic name.....and covers thousands of formulations having anything from lithium to calcium t9 talc etc....along with oil......oil that is many times....sulfurized. You will have no idea what long term issues these greases will have with any kind of plastic. There are lithium formulations that eat nylon 6.
Also these greases have TONS of long term breakdown and acidic PH reactions with metals of all types. These are the last things you want in a switch assembly.
Yeah...sure...I can make a switch smooth as silk with lithiun grease....or aluminum grease...or calcium grease....or teflon grease.....or even freaking bacon grease will make a switch smooth as glass. It does not mean that its good for it.....or the right product to use. Ray |
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t3kg
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Posts: 2712
Location: Los Angeles
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:36 pm Post subject: Re: sticky headlight button in pushbutton unit |
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| t3kg wrote: |
| Thanks Ray. The liberal use of grease in the CRC video made me think they must be trying to move as much product as possible... |
But...I will say....as general dielectric greases go.....there are few better than the CRC. I had the 3" high short can witj nozzle just like that for years. Used so little that the can rusted out its bottom fill plug before I could use it all. It takes so little for virtually any application. Ray |
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22402
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: sticky headlight button in pushbutton unit |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
A couple of items.
First...and take this from someone who deals with dielectric materials of all types for a living
| Quote: |
| Thanks. I was thinking about using dialectric grease but if you want to get really confused then start reading pro and con posts about dialectric grease online. There seems to be no consensus on how to use it or whether it's beneficial or harmful to conductivity. |
There is no "apparenet" consensus with dielectric grease....in these forums...because 90% of those speaking of it have no idea whatsoever how it works and what dielectric means.
I can tell you that the electronics industry, dielectric grease manufacturers and anyone in the manufacturing supply chain......has no confusion as to what dielectric grease...or dielectric ANYTHING is...and does.
And part if what confuses people...is stupid...f*cked up...asinine...online definitions like this one:
The f*cked up part of that definition...is that a dielectric....TRANSMITS NO ELECTRIC FORCE!....its purely an insulator....as the definition notes. This however...does not mean that it is 100% a non-conductor. Here is how it works
More precisely....it is a POLARIZING material. It keeps + and - apart by "dielectric polarization". It literally turns positive and negative electrons away from each other. It changes their attraction by being technicality..."bi-polar".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric
Ray |
I've never used Dielectric grease on a VW before. I haven't found a place yet that requires it.
In fact the only places I've ever used it was between the alternator housing and the voltage regulator on the older GM SI type alternators., and for the module on GM HEI distributors. That's it. A 3oz tube will last a lifetime if you own a GM.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:24 pm Post subject: Re: sticky headlight button in pushbutton unit |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
A couple of items.
First...and take this from someone who deals with dielectric materials of all types for a living
| Quote: |
| Thanks. I was thinking about using dialectric grease but if you want to get really confused then start reading pro and con posts about dialectric grease online. There seems to be no consensus on how to use it or whether it's beneficial or harmful to conductivity. |
There is no "apparenet" consensus with dielectric grease....in these forums...because 90% of those speaking of it have no idea whatsoever how it works and what dielectric means.
I can tell you that the electronics industry, dielectric grease manufacturers and anyone in the manufacturing supply chain......has no confusion as to what dielectric grease...or dielectric ANYTHING is...and does.
And part if what confuses people...is stupid...f*cked up...asinine...online definitions like this one:
The f*cked up part of that definition...is that a dielectric....TRANSMITS NO ELECTRIC FORCE!....its purely an insulator....as the definition notes. This however...does not mean that it is 100% a non-conductor. Here is how it works
More precisely....it is a POLARIZING material. It keeps + and - apart by "dielectric polarization". It literally turns positive and negative electrons away from each other. It changes their attraction by being technicality..."bi-polar".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric
Ray |
I've never used Dielectric grease on a VW before. I haven't found a place yet that requires it.
In fact the only places I've ever used it was between the alternator housing and the voltage regulator on the older GM SI type alternators., and for the module on GM HEI distributors. That's it. A 3oz tube will last a lifetime if you own a GM. |
So true!
I bought it to grease the window winder tubes in my 412...works great. Used a little around the distributor cap boots....just a smear.
That can lasted like 7 years and the plug blew out the bottom from age. Threw 80% of it away. Ray |
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t3kg
Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2006
Posts: 2712
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: sticky headlight button in pushbutton unit |
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Just wanted to follow up on this. I bought some contact cleaner and a can of Deoxit Fader F100. I tested both on the bakelite housing and there was no effect. I sprayed contact cleaner in the cracks around the buttons and operated each button 20-30 times. At first I was a little worried because until the contact cleaner dried the light buttons wouldn't stay in the "on" position—but after a few minutes of drying everything was OK. The I sprayed in the F100 lube and worked the buttons again 20-30 times each. The wiper and parking light buttons were much smoother after doing this, but the headlight switch was still sticking and not returning completely to the "off" position.
It was still hanging up somewhere—just friction, or a bigger mechanical problem like a weak or broken spring? I decided to caaarrrefully pry open the top cover to spray some F100 on the pivots and springs. (If you decide to do this be very careful. The cover has tabs that need to be pried in two different directions, and the old plastic is very brittle and it will likely crack if not break. I was able to do it with only minor damage.) Everything looked relatively clean and there was no obvious problem. Unfortunately the action of the headlight button didn't get any better after lubing everything—I still had to pull the button back to the "off" position manually. Better, but a little disappointing.
Today, a week later, I gave the headlight button another try and it's now working perfectly. The solvents and lube just needed more time to do their thing. All is well.
Thanks again Ray for the recommendations.
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