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mginkel
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2018
Posts: 5
Location: claifornia
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 Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:12 am Post subject: 74 beatle ignition questions |
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I am a newbee to VW’s. I inherited a standard 74 beatle when my father past away. It was his daily driver for years and over the years had fell into disrepair. He reportedly had the engine rebuilt and it was having new paint when he became ill and never was completed . As tribute my son and I decided to restore it. Unfortunately when I receive the car it was a mess. We have completely restored the interior . It starts and runs fine at idle and throttled but when slowing down it dies every time . I believe I have located one of the issues in that I found a vacuum leak on the throttle bushing of the carb. I
Have purchased a new pict 3 replacement from Jbugs but have read a number of poor reviews any comments are appreciated. I was also looking at the vacuum advance and read several conflicting setups , mine is set so the rear” advance “ ( nearest to rear bumper away from distributors) of the can is attached to the side of the carb and the front of the can “ retard” ( closest to distributor) to the rear of the carb, is the correct? Also every distributor diagram of firing order suggests the #1 cylinder is most rear passager side of the distributor cap, however the TDC mark on side of distributor suggests it’s the front most passager side . Is my distributor installed 90 degrees off?
Any help or comments are greatly appreciated! |
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AlmostHeavenWV_VW 
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2017
Posts: 1966
Location: WV
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:04 am Post subject: Re: 74 beatle ignition questions |
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(edited to get some better pictures)
a Few things:
I assume you currently have a 34PICT3 carb
you should read over the related 34pict3 threads here:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=183060
"New" carbs often are troublesome.
buy a good refurbished german, or have your german solex carb redone by this fine fellow:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1715786
Firing order and plug wires (ASSUMING NOTHING IS 'OFF' WITH THE DISTRIBUTOR)
Distributor 'drive gear check'
Here's my 73 (proper distributor drive/distributor orientation) (I only have the advance port hooked up)
Vacuum advance goes to the port seen and labeled here
Retard port on carb is on the rear (rear of car) side of the carb, sticking straight out. (blurry pic but you can see the port with the vacuum cap)
you are talking about two vacuum can ports, so I assume you have a DVDA like mine:
This pic shows the ADVANCE port
RETARD port: (is a larger diameter)
Also check this out:
AlmostHeavenWV's Orientation Page for the Samba
happy bug'n
_________________
1973 Standard Beetle
1600DP AK case
Solex 34PICT3 Carb
Bosch DVDA 205AJ Distributor |
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mginkel
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2018
Posts: 5
Location: claifornia
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: 74 beatle ignition questions |
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Thank you for the information. I email the carb rebuild guy today about rebuilding my solex . The vacuum advance is correct but why do you not have your retard vacuum attached . I also have a vacuum plugged on the manifold ?? The distributor appear to be off the TDC mark on the body of the distributor is point right at the number #2 plug but does go to the #1 cylinder. So I am not sure but it seems that that might screwup the timing. How do I correct that ??
Thanks again |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15985
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: 74 beatle ignition questions |
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| mginkel wrote: |
| ... every distributor diagram of firing order suggests the #1 cylinder is most rear passager side of the distributor cap, however the TDC mark on side of distributor suggests it’s the front most passager side . Is my distributor installed 90 degrees off? |
Positioning the #1 spark plug wire just based on the location around the distributor cap is not good enough if you don't know more about your engine. The mark on the rim of the distributor body is like a "permanent pencil mark". As part of installing the distributor drive gear and distributor correctly it indicates were you place the #1 plug wire. If the gear or distributor are installed incorrectly it could indicate one of the other spark plug wires.
Common mistakes:
#1 spark plug wire post on the distributor cap is ALWAYS in the same place. This is wrong. Many SVDA/DVDA distributors will have #1 plug wire at the 1-o'clock position. Many mechanical advance distributors will have the #1 plug wire at the 4-o'clock position. T2 distributors used on Beetles may have #1 location at the 7-o'clock position. That pic above which shows the spark plug#s and distributor post#s only works for SOME distributors.
The distributor drive gear must be installed as shown above when the crank and cam are in the #1 cylinder TDC position at the end of the compression stroke. When the #1 cylinder is instead at TDC at the end of the exhaust stroke, the slot will be 180-deg off. VERY COMMON MISTAKE.
Installing a different model distributor and assuming the #1 spark plug will be in the same location on the distributor cap. The proper location of #1 spark plug wire is distributor model dependent. This pic shows the '74 SVDA, 009 and '68 autostick distributors side-by-side. They are oriented the same but you can see the #1 mark is in different locations around the rim.
Some pre-71 VW distributors came with a retarded #3 position on the distributor. This is controlled by the four lobed cam on the shaft of the distributor. This was meant to reduce the temp of #3 cylinder. If the distributor is installed incorrectly, it will function but a different cylinder other than #3 will be retarded. If the cylinder happens to be #1 and you time the ignition with a strobe timing light then cylinders #2-#4 will be over advanced.
KEY REQUIREMENT for placement of spark plug wires: The rotor must deliver a spark to the #1 spark plug wire when the #1 cylinder is at "TDC at the end of the compression stroke".
The easiest way to do this is to manually rotate the crank until you have positioned #1 cylinder at the end of the compression stroke. This cannot be determined with the TDC mark on the crank pulley alone. You must look at valve movement.
Once you have the engine (crank + cam) at the end of #1 compression stroke (about 1/2 crank rotation AFTER the intake valve closes and about 1/2 crank rotation BEFORE the exhaust valve opens)... place the #1 spark plug wire on the post of the distributor cap where the rotor tip is pointing. By doing this, you will ALWAYS meet the "KEY REQUIREMENT" above. Pretty much any other method for placing the spark plug wires allows for error.
Figuring out WHERE #1 post is on the distributor is one of the first things I do when working with an unfamiliar engine. The PO could have installed the distributor gear or distributor incorrectly so I cannot ASSUME the marks on the distributor are correct.
_________________
AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
Last edited by ashman40 on Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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AlmostHeavenWV_VW
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2017
Posts: 1966
Location: WV
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: 74 beatle ignition questions |
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| mginkel wrote: |
Thank you for the information. I email the carb rebuild guy today about rebuilding my solex . The vacuum advance is correct but why do you not have your retard vacuum attached . I also have a vacuum plugged on the manifold ?? The distributor appear to be off the TDC mark on the body of the distributor is point right at the number #2 plug but does go to the #1 cylinder. So I am not sure but it seems that that might screwup the timing. How do I correct that ??
Thanks again |
How about some pictures of your car and engine? That will help us sleuth out any issues.
That vacuum retard is only active at idle, it was a emissions measure to pass USA spec regulations. No particular affect otherwise.
Sounds like you have a port on the manifold on the left side, just below the carb flange? That's typically for the pre-heat air intake on the OEM air filter box.
If you would like more info, there is much here on the samba- only a few clicks and search away but here's some info on the carb preheat set up:
| Quote: |
| AlmostHeavenWV_VW wrote: |
| Xevin wrote: |
..... How exactly does the 74 style plastic air filter work with all its vacuum hoses? I’ve read a lot but don’t fully comprehend the contrast to earlier type 1 preheat setups.
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1 tutorial comin' right up, buddy!
Vacuum signal comes from the manifold vacuum port directly below the carb mounting flange, left side. Hose goes from there up to the left side port of the airbox 'thermostat valve.' Then hose goes from right side port on thermostat to the top of the 'dome' on the right side of the airbox (on the snout).
When engine is cold, thermostat allows vacuum to pass through to draw the 'flapper' in the snout up which blocks off the 'snout' intake and rather draws the intake air through the 'elbow' below the snout from the 'preheat stove pipe' which is underneath and rests on the right side exhaust- thereby drawing warmed air into the carb during cold engine/cool start conditions. This system intact allows for MUCH IMPROVED cold/cool engine drivability. (ask me how I know  )
Preheat 'stovepipe in place from underneath: (it's the large gray metal tube in the upper right of the picture)
Any more Q's just ask, X! |
| AlmostHeavenWV_VW wrote: |
| Xevin wrote: |
Thank you so much for that. I got next round
Haven’t had access to my Bentley for a couple weeks. Didn’t mean for you to do my homework  Whats with that stove pipe bit by the push rod tubes? I don’t recall ever seeing that. Cheers brother.
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Here's that stovepipe/preheat adapter/preheat elbow whatchamacallit:
Round end pops up through the engine tin, preheat elbow on airbox > hose > stovepipe
It has a few connections to secure it.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=489953&highlight=stove+pipe |
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_________________
1973 Standard Beetle
1600DP AK case
Solex 34PICT3 Carb
Bosch DVDA 205AJ Distributor |
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mginkel
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2018
Posts: 5
Location: claifornia
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:16 pm Post subject: Re: 74 beatle ignition questions |
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| Thanks so much . I will post some picture once I figure out how to do it. |
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AlmostHeavenWV_VW
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2017
Posts: 1966
Location: WV
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: 74 beatle ignition questions |
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| mginkel wrote: |
| Thanks so much . I will post some picture once I figure out how to do it. |
How to post pictures
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6
_________________
1973 Standard Beetle
1600DP AK case
Solex 34PICT3 Carb
Bosch DVDA 205AJ Distributor |
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wcfvw69
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: 74 beatle ignition questions |
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| mginkel wrote: |
I was also looking at the vacuum advance and read several conflicting setups , mine is set so the rear” advance “ ( nearest to rear bumper away from distributors) of the can is attached to the side of the carb and the front of the can “ retard” ( closest to distributor) to the rear of the carb, is the correct? Also every distributor diagram of firing order suggests the #1 cylinder is most rear passager side of the distributor cap, however the TDC mark on side of distributor suggests it’s the front most passager side . Is my distributor installed 90 degrees off?
Any help or comments are greatly appreciated! |
Curious which distributor you have installed? A 74' California bug with a manual transmission would have a 043905205C DVDA installed. Is this what you have?
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mginkel
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2018
Posts: 5
Location: claifornia
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:04 pm Post subject: Re: 74 beatle ignition questions |
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Followup . Ordered and installed EMPI replacement while the stick solex is sent to be rebuilt . Car runs like a dream!! I have not yet adjusted valve as the distributor issue makes it tough to be sure of TDC . Order an new pulley which I am going to install, but the timing advances nicely and the car runs great .
BTW finally figure out how to post picture
Thanks again
[/img] |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15985
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:06 am Post subject: Re: 74 beatle ignition questions |
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| mginkel wrote: |
| I have not yet adjusted valve as the distributor issue makes it tough to be sure of TDC . Order an new pulley which I am going to install, but the timing advances nicely and the car runs great . |
A little bit confused by your description? To adjust valve lash you only need a very general idea where TDC for each cylinder is on the crank OR distributor. This means you can rotate the crank pulley until the rotor points to where the #1 spark plug wire is installed on the distributor cap. This is close enough to #1 TDC to adjust the valves for #1 cylinder. You can do the same for each cylinder. This works because the valves for a cylinder are closed within within about 150deg of TDC in either direction of rotation. You could be off by almost 90deg at the distributor and still be able to adjust the valves.
Another way to adjust valves...
Remove the valve covers. Rotate the crank CW while you watch the valves for the cylinder you want to adjust. As you rotate, watch for the intake valve to OPEN and then CLOSE (intake valves are located near the center of the head where the intake port is). Once it is CLOSED, rotate the crank another 180deg. You are now at the end of the compression stroke and both INTAKE and EXHAUST valves will be closed. Adjust the gap for both valves. Do the same for all four cylinders.
This method doesn't require you look at the crank pulley or distributor at all.
One additional note.... the "shepherd's hook/crook" tube on your vacuum advance line needs to go UP before it goes down to the vacuum advance port on the distributor. The idea is it prevents fuel from flowing from the carb to the distributor. Here is a pic showing how the tubing should be bent.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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vamram
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2012
Posts: 7304
Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:56 am Post subject: Re: 74 beatle ignition questions |
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I would add that the rubber hose for the vacuum retard should be looped up for the same reason that the advance Sheppard's book needs to loop up.
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