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Aftermarket Heating for Ghia
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bluedot
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:09 pm    Post subject: Aftermarket Heating for Ghia Reply with quote

Living in the rain forest on the Oregon Coast, a heater is imperative to be able to drive our car - mostly for defogging, as well as drying the car out in all the humidity and rain we receive.

We have a 1600 dual port in the ghia - no heater boxes. Eventually, we will be putting a high perf engine in the place of the 1600, and heater boxes don't appear to be a great solution. Even when they worked.

I looked into an Espar heater for the ghia, but the venting, cost, etc. becomes difficult. After some discussion with some people - they thought a hydronic heating system from engine oil would be the answer.

I wanted to reach out and ask everyone what solutions (short of moving to Southern California) would work. Are you using a diesel heater with a small tank? A rebuilt factory gas burner? What about a propane powered hydronic with a small canister that could be replaced?

Seems like something under the hood as close to the passengers and defrosters would be the best? Could one run an oil cooler all the way up here and reduct it?
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oceanair
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the channels are solid, the factory heat cooks us up here --burns my shoes!
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70 140
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They make heater boxes for hi-po engines. They cost a few bucks more, but I guarantee they are a lot less hassle than trying to cobble together some alternative system. \

This of course requires your door, glass and trunk seals to be in good shape, and you heater channels to be solid as previously mentioned.
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bluedot
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you're in Victoria! Very similar environments - my channels are solid, but not rebuilt - so it's possible they are not as solid as I would like to imagine they are.

Does your defroster have a lot of air? Can you run your vert with your top down on a cold day?

Do you have a high-perf engine / heater boxes?

oceanair wrote:
If the channels are solid, the factory heat cooks us up here --burns my shoes!
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bluedot
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you guys tried the inline fans?

http://www.vwheaters.com
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Altema
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The single most effective heater is the front mounted gas heater: Heat your car toasty warm without even starting the engine. Leave the windows open and heat the garage too! I know you have written them off as being too expensive, but they really are a good solution.

The inline fans work, however they are a bit noisy. Some have expressed concern that they have a higher risk of pulling exhaust fumes into the car. An alternative is a bus blower which maintains positive system pressure, does not have the problem of overheating like the inline fans, and is silent. At idle, you have the same amount of heat as if you are driving 45mph. I drove to work tonight with ice on the roads, and I turned the blower off. It should be noted that some headers made to work with heater boxes only provide heat from two cylinders. The stock setup gets heat from all four, with cylinders 4 and 2 preheating the air before the heater box. Below is a shot of a bus blower installed in a Ghia (if you are curious).



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oceanair
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the rear floor vents totally closed, pushed closed by hand for a great seal (i never open them anyhow) yes, the defrost on the windshield, when driving works really well on mine. It's not a vert. When at idle, there is little to speak of. So I guess it's that or with the bus blower.

The gas heater is ideal for sure, but where do you get one??
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jwold
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried installing one on my bug, under the rear seat. Heat from the heater box melted the fan motor and housing within a half hour.

They might work better between the dog house and the shroud, but if your channels are toast then it won't matter much no matter how hard you're blowing air.
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Brassneck
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about getting something like this? http://m.ebay.com/itm/221187234077

Not meant to be a permanent solution but for winter months...might be a good alternative. Just a thought.

Edit: I take it back, seems like the reviews on these are less than positive. Sad


Last edited by Brassneck on Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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mfitzsimor
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bluedot,

I'm in Portland, and as a former bus owner still with a parts stash, I'm going to install a bus blower per the thread that was posted within the last year.

No "damage" to an otherwise relatively original car and easy to remove for summer.
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sactojesse
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I lived in Tacoma, I never had any issues with the stock heater box system providing enough heat, but the windshield defrost was another issue. I just carried a rag with me for the windshield. Just make sure your door seals, window seals, and trunk seal are in good shape.

I running the Dansk 1 1/2" flanged heater boxes with my 2110. They aren't nearly as good as the stock system, because they don't have fins inside the heater boxes, but they are better than nothing. I would say that they are adequate down to around 40 degrees F.
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swavananda
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been running the inline blower for nearly 3 years now and it has held up fine. Just a little warping that smoothed itself out. It does help to defog the windshield immediately . I used an after market accordion tube, better to save an original if you can. They can only be heard at idle. The fans can be bought pretty cheap, No need to buy that kit;

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001O0DE8K/ref=pd...GXNYF8SDS7

My engine is clean and well tuned with OG heater boxes .driven every day, all year. I can't see anyway a healthy engine would create enough heat to fully melt the blower. but of course....... YMMV.

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NOVA Airhead
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before looking at alternative systems I think the best course is to get the factory system working properly and then evaluate if its enough. My car has rebuilt heater channels with everything working properly. I have measured the air temp at 155 degrees coming out of the defroster. It was still climbing but my thermometer only went to 160.

The air temp isn't the issue its the volume. Compared to a modern car with an electric fan the volume isn't the same - particularly at low speeds. It will get warm in your Ghia it just may take a little longer depending on the outside temp. However once the interior is warm it will stay very warm. It is a small car.

If the stock system is not enough and you plan on keeping the car the gas heater is probably worth the investment as opposed to other alternatives.
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danielsan
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are still thinking about a gas heater this is the second complete system I've ever seen in three years of looking and first one to come up in the last year

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1567244

Has all the impossible to find parts. More than I would want to pay for unit that needs to be rebuilt but there is something to be said for having all the parts. It took me 2 years to gather everything I needed in one place.

(no connection)

I have ambivalent feelings about mine.

The good: the heat is fantastic and within 15 minutes it produces more heat than I can handle -- even when the temps are in the single digits. The heat is also nicer than you would ever get from an electric heater.

The bad: One the other hand it has a 5 minute cool down cycle and that cycle always puts a faint smell of gas in the main cabin. Also, sometime the wind can catch things just right and throw the exhaust towards the side window. Also, there is something a bit unnerving about having a controlled fire right on top of the gas tank. Also suck lots of electricity -- you absolutely need to have an alternator.

But. When I fire it up and let it run for 10 minutes the car is warmer and more comfortable than a modern car -- and melts the snow off the car and even clears an area around the car.
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Altema
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NOVA Airhead wrote:
However once the interior is warm it will stay very warm. It is a small car.

Very true... when I picked my son up from a friends house, he got in the Ghia and said "Does this thing have permanent heat or something? It's always warm in here"
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mfitzsimor
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had stock gas heaters in Things and Buses and I added a type 4 sqareback heater to a type 3 squareback. It was nice in a bus because it was either in the back or under the vehicle and it added another fan to the system. ANY heat was a plus!

It was nice in the Thing because they were my daily drivers and I lived in western NY with a 45 minute one way commute. I did also have heat exchangers on the things, so I didn't have to rely on it 100%. I had one scary situation with an electrical failure that melted wires etc., but no fire resulted. It was noisy, but so was the Thing in general It did smell a bit. The timer on the switch was pretty cool!

The best heater of the bunch was the type 4 style. It added a fan, was mounted under the car/bus and augmented the heat from the stock heat exchangers.

In a primarily non-freezing climate and in a vehicle not driven on a daily basis it would add a LOT of complexity, require you to cut several holes through body metal and parts probably will be a challenge.

If I had to add one to my ghia, I'd try to find another type 4 heater, mount it above the trans under the car and add an alternator.

Mark
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bluedot
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:58 pm    Post subject: 12v Ducted Heater Reply with quote

I have this fantasy of using my car in misty conditions, 50 degrees with a canvas top - and with the top down - and be able to dry it out when I pull her into it's nest after a drive.

I had a Westy that went moldy due to not driving it enough, as the fabrics take on humidity. We use dehumidifiers all over the property now - but a dry car when I park it is a good first step.

So I scoured every Webasto and Eberspacher piece of info I could find - and since my car is slammed, I'm not going to be able to get that exhaust very far away, and I want to use it with the top down.

My problem was not searching for the right thing. A Webasto or Eberspacher is a parking heater. They can remote run, and are used to warm a car when it's really cold weather. Ours will be when it's running, right?

I ran into DC Thermal - they do heaters for tractors and heavy equipment in DC. 10,000 BTU's with an adjustable fan on 50 amps. We upgraded to an 85 amp alternator awhile back - and running the numbers, I think we'll be ok. It has defroster ducts, is really small, and only 200$. It's aluminum and has a 2 year warranty and US made. I ordered one.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

http://dcthermal.com/catalog/sd12-4000-volt-ducted-heater-copy

I'll take some pics when it shows up, and let everyone know how it works before putting it in. I've got the dash all torn apart at the moment redoing the wiper motor and linkage, and putting in 914 tach guts in my clock.
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crocteau
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:36 am    Post subject: Re: 12v Ducted Heater Reply with quote

That's an interesting approach! Are you pulling 50 amps from the rear to a switch in the front? Using the 8 AWG wire suggested on their website? Think
Just a comment on:
bluedot wrote:
A Webasto or Eberspacher is a parking heater.
The marketing literature does make it an environmentally friendly selling point directed at big rig operators with sleepers: stay warm without idling while you catch a few winks.
I don't typically try to heat the great outdoors, but my wife and I have been toasty cruising in an open '71 Ghia cabriolet while leaf looking on a crisp Fall day with a gasoline-burning Espar pushing hot air through the heater channel/defroster outlets. Cool
I think your plan should work, too!
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Altema
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Make sure your power cables are a home run from the battery to the heater, and fuse the positive side at the battery end, preferrably within the first couple of inches. It should work physically to supplement the existing heat, and would make it more comfortable if you have the amps to support it. Heating a car with the roof off is a bit different challenging, and keep in mind that you will not be able to run it once you turn the car off, so drying the car out after a misty drive will require an auxiliary power source or another method of drying. The few times our Ghia has gotten slightly damp on the inside was from driving in rainstorms that ripped trees out of the ground. What I did in those situations was put a space heater that had an electronic thermostat in the car with a small desk fan to circulate. Not what you want to do on a regular basis, but it was an emergency situation.

Let us know how it works out, as I'm pretty sure you will be the group alpha tester!

Paul
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bluedot
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Altema wrote:
Make sure your power cables are a home run from the battery to the heater, and fuse the positive side at the battery end, preferrably within the first couple of inches.


I was hoping to bring (1) #4 cable, the flexible type used for car stereos up to the front for solely the heater. I already have a pair of new #8's up to there to a new fuse block (with a ground) to a Blue Sea spade system. Love their blocks!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Do you think it's ok to use the #10 ground? It's really supplemental, just find when I am wiring and troubleshooting, having a "real" ground block makes my life easier. Hate to have to add another #4, those things are monsters!

I had done a headlight upgrade with 110W H4's, and am just using the 6 volt wiring for the relay switching.

Thanks for your info - I totally agree about getting the stock system running as well, and will plan on running both, but focus the electric heat on the defrost and one vent to our feet.

A charger that I could plug in when in her nest that could handle the 50A load of the electric heater would be the cats meow. Thanks for the reminder!
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