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EP 35 flasher
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ricaroo
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:39 am    Post subject: EP 35 flasher Reply with quote

Is this the correct flasher I use to replace the OEM flasher if I install led bulbs
(#1157 in front and #1156 in rearfor my blinkers)

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Rick
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TX-73
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:16 am    Post subject: Re: EP 35 flasher Reply with quote

Yes,
for more details see bottom of this page:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...;start=380

and top of this page:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...;start=400

For my 73 (not sure if same for 71):
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ricaroo
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:19 am    Post subject: Re: EP 35 flasher Reply with quote

Hi,

I located the flasher and my flasher only has three terminals, the wiring diagrams flasher shows four... Here we go again with another prior owners modification.

When I can get back out I will post where the three wires are connected 🙄


Now I understand why the four way flashers wouldn’t work however the blinkers always have operated properly

When I figure out what’s happening, which flasher would I need for the LED blinkers. (The EP-35 only has three terminals

Thanks,
Rick
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:07 pm    Post subject: Re: EP 35 flasher Reply with quote

The short answer is VW used the 3-prong flasher relay to supersede the earlier 4-prong flasher relays which were more expensive.
The only difference was the 4-prong relays had a dedicated terminal for the turn signal indicator in the speedo. The speedo indicator originally connected to a KBL terminal of the flasher relay. With the migration to the 3-prong relay this same wire is connected to the #49a OUTPUT terminal of the flasher relay.
You can see this in the '72 Beetle wiring diagram (see the flasher relay at "J2"):
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



The long answer is more complicated and goes into explaining how the turn indicator lamp works when the OUTPUT of the turn indicator lamp is spliced into the OUTPUT of the flasher relay. For now let's leave it with the short explanation.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:56 am    Post subject: Re: EP 35 flasher Reply with quote

AshMan40,

Thank for the diagram and the explanation, I appreciate the help.

Rick
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:15 pm    Post subject: Re: EP 35 flasher Reply with quote

Looking for help installing the Zevo bulbs in the rear - tail, brake and turn
And these:
https://www.amazon.com/Headlights-Signal-Volkswage...&psc=1

In the front for headlight and turn (on the halo)

Will get the right flasher - but is there anything else I need to do the get it all to work?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:31 pm    Post subject: Re: EP 35 flasher Reply with quote

Chap_iii wrote:
Looking for help installing the Zevo bulbs in the rear - tail, brake and turn
<...>
Will get the right flasher - but is there anything else I need to do the get it all to work?

LED turn signal lamp will require the correct LED compatible flasher relay (or load resistors).

That all-in-one headlight assembly looks pretty cool. The ad says 75W (6.25A). That seems very high for LEDs. One of the big selling points for LEDs are they draw less power. It is not clear from the add if that 75W is cumulative (headlight + parking lamp + turn signal), or just the power used for the headlights. I guess it doesn’t matter as long as you wire the assembly correctly. Even a 75W headlight can be powered by the stock 8A fuse as long as you have good clean connctions. You might consider running a dedicated 8AWG wire from the battery to the front just to feed a pair of headlamp relays (high beam & low beam). This ensures max current will reach the headlights.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:17 am    Post subject: Re: EP 35 flasher Reply with quote

Chap_iii wrote:
Looking for help installing the Zevo bulbs in the rear - tail, brake and turn
And these:
https://www.amazon.com/Headlights-Signal-Volkswage...&psc=1

In the front for headlight and turn (on the halo)

Will get the right flasher - but is there anything else I need to do the get it all to work?


I have that headlight. Bright as hell. And the angel eyes turn signals are awesome. Haven't solved the flasher relay myself though, so they work either super fast, or not at all.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:48 pm    Post subject: Re: EP 35 flasher Reply with quote

DurocShark wrote:
I have that headlight. Bright as hell. And the angel eyes turn signals are awesome. Haven't solved the flasher relay myself though, so they work either super fast, or not at all.

Which flasher relay are you running? The "hyper flash" suggests you are NOT running an LED compatible flasher relay?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:00 pm    Post subject: Re: EP 35 flasher Reply with quote

ashman40 wrote:
DurocShark wrote:
I have that headlight. Bright as hell. And the angel eyes turn signals are awesome. Haven't solved the flasher relay myself though, so they work either super fast, or not at all.

Which flasher relay are you running? The "hyper flash" suggests you are NOT running an LED compatible flasher relay?


Correct. Wasn't clear. A standard 3pin relay gets the super fast flash. I have both a 35 and a 37 and neither flash at all. Except occasionally. Stupid 50 year old wiring...
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:15 pm    Post subject: Re: EP 35 flasher Reply with quote

DurocShark wrote:
A standard 3pin relay gets the super fast flash.

As expected since they were not designed to work w/ LED lights which don't provide enough current load. Stock VW flasher relays were clearly marked as needing x2 or x4 21W bulbs:
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DurocShark wrote:
I have both a 35 and a 37 and neither flash at all. Except occasionally. Stupid 50 year old wiring...

EP-37 is likely the wrong flasher relay for a VW turn signal set up. It only has a "+" (12v) INPUT and a "L" OUTPUT. When there is a LOAD on the "L" terminal the flasher relay starts to pulse the output.

Here's a test for you....
Disconnect and wrap the blue/red wire coming from the speedo turn signal indicator lamp from the flasher relay. Or you can remove the bulb from the turn indicator bulb holder and reinstall the empty bulb holder. This basically takes the speedo turn indicator lamp out of the picture. Just be sure not to let ANY loose wires touch ground as most of the turn signal wires are "hot".
Test your turn signals and E-Flashers. In this arrangement, the flasher relay is a simple flasher relay between a 12v source and a load from the corner bulbs.
If this arrangement works, reconnect the turn indicator lamp and retest. If the turn signals stop working as expected... it means your flasher relay is not compatible with the European style turn signal setup. Generic flasher relays typically don't like the 12v+ coming from the turn indicator lamp to the flasher relay OUTPUT terminal (#49a).
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:02 pm    Post subject: Re: EP 35 flasher Reply with quote

You're assuming the wiring colors are correct. The wiring in this car has been seriously butchered.

I'm trying to figure out how a 3 pin relay is able to differentiate between right and left. I just can't get my head around it...
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:28 pm    Post subject: Re: EP 35 flasher Reply with quote

DurocShark wrote:


I'm trying to figure out how a 3 pin relay is able to differentiate between right and left. I just can't get my head around it...


It doesn't. The switch does that.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:28 pm    Post subject: Re: EP 35 flasher Reply with quote

So the relay is upstream of the switch? Power goes from the relay to the switch then to the appropriate bulb circuit? Is that right? And some of that peels off to the emergency flasher switch?

Ugh, my brain hurts. I hate wiring.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:15 pm    Post subject: Re: EP 35 flasher Reply with quote

DurocShark wrote:
So the relay is upstream of the switch? Power goes from the relay to the switch then to the appropriate bulb circuit? Is that right? And some of that peels off to the emergency flasher switch?

Ugh, my brain hurts. I hate wiring.

This pic from Speedy Jim’s site best shows how the turn signals and E-Flasher circuits overlap.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

From the #49a OUTPUT terminal of the flasher relay the pulsing 12v splits into three paths (2 are shown in the pic... the 3rd is the turn signal indicator in the speedo).
One path goes to the turn signal switch. Current flow stops at the turn signal switch until the switch is moved into the L or R turn position and a path to ground thru the corner lamps is opened.
The other current path goes BACK to the E-Flasher switch where it waits for the E-Fasher switch to be turned ON. When this happens a path thru the E-Flasher switch OPENs and goes to BOTH the L and R turn signal lamp segments, powering all four corners. Also note that when the E-FLasher switch is turned ON the 12v source is changed from the turn signal fuse (#15 ignition switch powered) to the E-Flasher fuse (#30 - constant 12v).

All of the above is pretty straight forward. 12v comes from one of the fuses and powers the flasher relay. Depending on which switch opens a path to ground pulsing current from the relay flows thru bulbs and lights them up. The stock flasher relay expects all the corner bulbs to be 21W. If the current draw drops below 21Wx2 the relay quick flashes to let the driver know a bulb has blown. This is why 2W LED bulbs will result in quick flashing lamps from a stock flasher relay. It sees that at least one corner bulb has blown. Sometimes the 2Wx2 is so low the relay stops working completely.


The turn indicator in the speedo is not show in the above pic. But if you can imagine, it will be a 2W bulb wired between the #49a terminal and the #15 fuse that powers the turn signals. This means the indicator bulb is powered by the #15 fuse and NOT by the flasher relay. A common mistake is to think that the turn signal indicators is just an extra corner bulb. It is FAR more complicated that that.
The speedo turn indicator lamp shares the path to ground that the #49a flasher relay terminal does. For the same reason the flasher relay does NOT click while the ignition is ON and powering it, but neither switch is ON providing a path to ground the turn indicator lamp is not ON. When the turn signal switch is moved to L or R the ground path opens. The flasher relay provides current to turn the corner lamps ON. The turn indicator remains OFF... not because there isn’t 12v, but because the turn indicator lamp in the speedo “sees” 12v+ from BOTH sides (12v+ coming from the #15 fuse and 12v+ coming from the #49a terminal). The potentilal voltage difference across the bulb is 0v even though there is 12v+ on both sides. It has no path to ground or a lower voltage so NO current flows thru the indicator lamp. Imagine what happens to a 12v bulb when you connect both contacts to the same positive post of the battery... nothing.
When the flasher relay pulses OFF, the turn indicator lamp has a free path for current to flow THRU the corner bulbs. The corner bulbs do NOT turn ON because the 2W needed to power the small indicator lamp is no where close to the 42W needed to power the corner lamps. So current flows thru the corner lamps to ground but do not warm up the filaments enough to get them glowing. The indicator lamp turns ON while the corner lamps appear OFF.
When the flasher relay again turn ON the corner lights light up but the turn indicator goes out. This is why the speedo turn indicator flashes in an opposing pattern to the corner lamps. This cycle repeats until the turn signal switch is turned OFF.
The E-Flasher switch works simlarly, but if used while the ignition is OFF there is no 12v+ coming from the #15 fuse to the turn indicator lamp. In this case the turn indicator lamp becomes a 5th turn signal lamp with 12v+ coming from the flasher relay and grounding thru the #15 ignition circuit. Again the 2W flowing thru the small indicator lamp is insufficient to power anything. The indicator lamp flashes in sync with the corners.
This extra 12v+ coming from the turn indicator lamp wire INTO the OUTPUT terminal of the flasher relay will often confuse generic flasher relays that only expect a path to ground on the OUTPUT terminals. This is why I suggested disconnecting the turn indicator lamp. If everything works fine with the indicator disconnected but gives problems when connected it suggests the flasher relay is not compatible with the ACVW turn signal system. The mistake (or fix) some with try is to reverse the polarity of the turn indicator lamp. This CAN work but just makes things more complicated. The three (3) indicator lamps at the bottom of the speedo share a commmon 12v+ INPUT and are turned ON with a switched ground.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:53 am    Post subject: Re: EP 35 flasher Reply with quote

DurocShark wrote:
So the relay is upstream of the switch? Power goes from the relay to the switch then to the appropriate bulb circuit? Is that right? And some of that peels off to the emergency flasher switch?

Ugh, my brain hurts. I hate wiring.


You pretty much nailed it. Forget the complicated flasher switch for now...

Power goes from fuse box to flasher relay...

Power comes out of flasher relay and goes up into turn signal switch where it hits a dead end.

When you move the signal switch left or right, you are sliding a contact into connection with that power wire.

That contact connects to wires going to either the left or right side turn signal bulbs, depending on which side you selected with the switch.

Once the bulbs are in the circuit, now the power can go somewhere and it goes through the bulb filaments to ground.

The bulbs being lit is what triggers the "flash" mechanism inside the relay which generates the pulsing 12v signal. Do a youtube search for how a thermal flasher relay works to get an idea of what's going on in the old school versions.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:11 am    Post subject: Re: EP 35 flasher Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
The bulbs being lit is what triggers the "flash" mechanism inside the relay which generates the pulsing 12v signal. Do a youtube search for how a thermal flasher relay works to get an idea of what's going on in the old school versions.

Found a simple diagram showing how the “generic” thermal flasher relays work:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The thing to note with these simple flasher relays is that the more current that flows thru the relay to power the corner lamps means the heating element will heat faster and typically cause the relay to flash faster. This means fewer bulbs (one or more burnt out) drawing current means a slower flash. This is opposite to how the VW flasher relay operates.

Here is a pic from Speedy Jim’s page of the internal wiring for a 3-prong VW-style flasher relay. Notice it is a bit more complicated. This relay senses the load and flashes FASTER when the load is lower. It also has a dedicated ground wire which the generic relay doesn’t.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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