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Keys and locks
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:39 pm    Post subject: Keys and locks Reply with quote

So another micro project that happens as you see something you KNOW you will need.

As I keep repeating endlessly....if you are going to drive and own these cars...really any aircooled VW...but especially the 411 and 412 cars.....you need to spend money..even small amounts...when you see something that is hard to get...even if you do not yet need it. DO NOT act like a VW bus owner! Laughing .....most of those guys seem to believe that parts will always be available when they need them.

So why is this important right now? Because my keys are worn out...and I stumbled across a pair of NOS Steel blanks for a decent price. Very Happy ...get it done!

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Here is the condition of my keys. The one on the top...the original lock set key...which I have complete....was always a problematic key set. I drove my car 50k miles a year. I went through about 2-3 of this odd skinny little key a year. They are just so narrow that they wore fast and occasionally got bent if caught sideways in a pocket.

So I took a lock set from another car I had...complete...numbered ignition and door handles. Its what is in there now but its keys are pocket worn to death.

I am going to cut a steel "master key" for each of these two door handle and ignition lock sets and put the original back in my car....because.....

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Very Happy These two original Key steel blanks arrived from a gentleman in Poland today! They have a small amount of surface rust specs...but looking good actually!

As the guys who work on ACVW locks say.....blanks and punch codes may not always be available...so its ideal to get the best quality key blank you can and have a key punched as your reference key and store it.

You can have many keys cheap ground from that reference.....but its good not to use the reference key for daily. Store it someplace safe...and even take a close up picture of it...because in a pinch they can make you a key from that.

So why is an original quality "steel" key a good idea? On one hand the owner of a highly used daily driver car should use the standard aftermarket chrome plated brass keys....because they do not wear out the brass tumblers of the locks and ignition so much.

But the keys themselves wear out. When they start to get sticky....replace them. But over the years ...recutting a new key from a worn out brass key makes the locks work worse and worse.

Using a steel key daily...it does not wear much but the locks do. So keep the steel key safe and dry as the "factory accurate" pattern...and every other year...spend $2 and have a fresh brass key cut.

So these two are great:

http://gabvwkey.com/

http://www.aircooledkey.com/

I recommend that you read carefully through their sites. A great read and a little more clarity about what fits and why.

They both have plenty of quality blanks in numerous brands and can cut your key from code....just like the dealer...or re-key your locks and ignition. Gabe at GabVW seems to have a few more dealer level NOS key banks as well.

A few of these pictures were taken off of Gabriels site and most off the web.

So just for reference:
VW 411 and 412 key blanks types:


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I will probably also have one each of these replacement steel blanks cut....for each lock set ...if I can afford it...simply because they are still available.

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Do not wait to find actual NOS like I did. The ones GabVWkey sells that are dealer replacement are good enough. But....if you still have a fully together lock set...ignition, door handles and.or back hatch lock....as soon as possible I would make sure they are functional and buy a decent pattern key punched from code.....and look online and buy a handful of good quality brass blanks....you can get them for under a $1 each...and put them in your glove box.
Ray
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Jeremiah Berger
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: Keys and locks Reply with quote

When I bought my car it had no door keys...what is my best course of action to get keys? Can I put in new cylinders?can a locksmith make keys for it ?are the doors and back hatch the same key?

thanks, Jeremiah
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:50 am    Post subject: Re: Keys and locks Reply with quote

Jeremiah Berger wrote:
When I bought my car it had no door keys...what is my best course of action to get keys? Can I put in new cylinders?can a locksmith make keys for it ?are the doors and back hatch the same key?

thanks, Jeremiah


Ok....so you are saying.... your ignition key works the ignition but not the door locks...correct?

From the factory...one key worked all of the door locks, the ignition and on the wagons...the rear hatch lock.

So if yours does not work the doors....there are three ways to go.

1. Pull your ignition cylinder out and read the stamped number on it. Then send your door handles and/or maybe just door handle cylinders...to either one of the two sites I listed above. They can re-key your door handle lock cylinders to the same key as the ignition....and possibly re-stamp the new numbers on the handle but do not quote me on that.

2. Remove both of your door handles. Each removes with just one screw under the plastic plug in the door jamb. Read the numbers stamped on each one. Hopefully they are the same number...matching handles.

If they do not match....you can have one set to match the other...and...you will also need to make sure that the tumbler set inside is actually matching that number.
Since its the door handle that is stamped...but not the tumbler set inside of it...some previous owner could have easily swapped out tumblers. So.....either you have matching numbers and correct tumblers inside or you have a mismatched set.
If you have a matching set with good tumblers inside....you can have a key cut for that code that matches the door handles...and just live with two keys...one for ignition and one for doors.......OR

3. You can have a key cut for those matching door handles that matches their number...and at the same time....send your ignition lock in with them...and they can re-key its tumblers to match the the handles...AND they can and will re-stamp the ignition tumbler to now match your door handles...I know they can do that.

So...its time to pull all three parts in your car...and check the numbers. So first....pull the ignition tumbler. Record the number on it.

Then take a GOOD quality photo of your key and send it and the number to either one of those key sites. They can look at the key profile...check your number...and tell you if that ignition key and tumbler set is actually the one that matches the number stamped on the outer housing.

Thats important....because just as easily someone could have swapped out the inner tumbler set into another housing.

Then pull the door handles and check their codes. Again...either of these sites can tell you buy the codes stamped on the door handles if they even came from a 412 or from a type 3 etc.

Ray
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Elroyyy
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Keys and locks Reply with quote

Ray,
You are certainly a wealth of information and I want to thank you for all of your posts through the years. Your previous posts have helped me on numerous occasions. I'm sure this one will help someone down the road (provided they use the search function).
I'd also like to thank Everett for creating and maintaining this site; without whom, there would be no forums for me to search.
Thanks again and Happy New Year!
-Elroy
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Jeremiah Berger
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Keys and locks Reply with quote

Yes that is correct. Ignition only..and it's an aftermarket key...Ok. I will pull some handles and check some numbers...good time to do that while it's in for winter.. thanks for the wealth of knowledge once again!

Jeremiah
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Jeremiah Berger
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 4:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Keys and locks Reply with quote

So...now that I know how it is supposed to be. My earlier assumption do not make sense, I always thought someone replaced the ignition because they had lost all the keys and the doors where different keys. Why would they do that. Exactly they wouldnt.

So I decided to try it again...the keys never went in at all and still didn't but the rear hatch seamed to accept it a little so I went around and tried it with some slight pressure and articulation and was able to get it in the hatch all the way and the others partially...after going in and out of the hatch keyhole it know slips right in like it should but doesn't turn...

So, my thoughts are that the cylinders are just seized up and maybe not the wrong keying.

Does that make sense? Is this possibly what is going on?
Not sure exactly but I think the car sat unused for quite some time..if I where to guesslike 20+ yrs

Is there an appropriate way to get them unseized and lubricated without taking the doors and handles apart?

The key is also newer steel key and Very rigid like it was cut yesterday...
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KTPhil Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Keys and locks Reply with quote

Usually a wrong key, but of the correct blank, will slide into the slot, but not turn.

Graphite powder is a good choice of lube for hatch and door keys, but I'd avoid it in the ignition, since the graphite could short the contacts eventually, however unlikely.
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Jeremiah Berger
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Keys and locks Reply with quote

Yes. Understood. The thing that has really got me thinking its the case, is that my keys match the keys and keyblanks that are listed by ray but initially wouldn't go in the cylinders at all...

I will try the graphite powder...

Thanks, Jeremiah
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KTPhil Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Keys and locks Reply with quote

Spray silicone might be a good choice, too. (like Superlube?)
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Keys and locks Reply with quote

Jeremiah Berger wrote:
So...now that I know how it is supposed to be. My earlier assumption do not make sense, I always thought someone replaced the ignition because they had lost all the keys and the doors where different keys. Why would they do that. Exactly they wouldnt.

So I decided to try it again...the keys never went in at all and still didn't but the rear hatch seamed to accept it a little so I went around and tried it with some slight pressure and articulation and was able to get it in the hatch all the way and the others partially...after going in and out of the hatch keyhole it know slips right in like it should but doesn't turn...

So, my thoughts are that the cylinders are just seized up and maybe not the wrong keying.

Does that make sense? Is this possibly what is going on?
Not sure exactly but I think the car sat unused for quite some time..if I where to guesslike 20+ yrs

Is there an appropriate way to get them unseized and lubricated without taking the doors and handles apart?

The key is also newer steel key and Very rigid like it was cut yesterday...


Ok....a couple of possibilities.

If the key needs to be wiggled a bit and then functions but is stiff and will not turn all the way.....two very common issues.....and one is ESPECIALLY if it seems to be the original steel key.

1. The locks had grease down inside where the tiny springs are that drive the brass tumblers outward. With age....the grease gets hard as a rock.....the tumblers get gummy and the key will not function well.

And mind you...this is just a cleaning and testing....not a fix if anything is wrong.

You can take the handle off....put on some nitrile gloves.....remove the small screw on the inside actuating lever....
First before you start....mark or note which way is up. Insert the key. Second pull the cylinder out ...outward...carefully and do not remove any or the brass gates or tumblers. Hold your fingers over the slots as you remove the key so the tumblers do not spring out. Clean the whole unit out with something hot and fast drying.....like berrymans chemtool....not acetone.

Blow it lightly with a blow dryer to dry out the solvent. Put a few drops of graphite oil in the slot and on the key and work it in and out.

Re-install it with the key in....put the locoing finger back on. Try it now. Works better? It waw just dirty.

2. If the above process does not make it all the way better...but partially better....and you have a steel key.....the problem is that the steel key has worn the soft brass tumblers or gates. If so....send it to either of the two links I listed. They will pull out each gate or tumbler and match it up to new ones and replace them. There are a set number of tumbler shapes and they can buy them in piles.

As I noted.....the main benefit of using aftermarket chrome plated brass keys is that they do not wear the tumblers as fast as the stock steel key.

There is also the option....if you feel adventurous and if you have more than a couple of VWs.....you can buy re-key kits.....that have a little pile of each style of tumbler and gates, an ID chart and directions for use.

These are for the door locks only and not the ignition but you can buy DIY kits for those as well. Its really pretty easy to do.
https://www.clksupplies.com/products/standard-wafe...MQEALw_wcB

Ray
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