| Author |
Message |
clooney
Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2011
Posts: 116
|
 Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:59 am Post subject: swing axle race axles |
 |
|
are they required for a 180hp type 1 mostly street use, occasional trips to the strip.
how strong are the stock short axles before they give way?
Weddle has SAW and "Made in USA" axles, both almost similarly priced. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
madmike
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:49 am Post subject: Re: swing axle race axles |
|
|
as long as u don't overtire it you'll be fine 
_________________
'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:07 am Post subject: Re: swing axle race axles |
|
|
| Occasional trips to the strip is the variable. If you’re going to do a burnout, and tach it up for any decent 60ft. at the track, it’s only a matter of time before the stock ones break. If you can garuntee the wheels will spin, and your suspension is set up to the point you have zero wheel hop, you could get away with the stock axles for a little while. If you’re driving the car to the track, get the aftermarket axles. I’ve been told by more than one person the Sway-A-Way axles are nicer for a dedicated track car since they are a little softer material, and have more of a torsional twist to absorb the shock load. Unfortunately this softer material allows the spades to wear out quicker. For a mostly street driven car, I would get a set of Empi’s swing axles. They are a little harder, and will wear better in the spade area. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
clooney
Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2011
Posts: 116
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:18 am Post subject: Re: swing axle race axles |
|
|
thanks. will not be doing any burnouts. transmission still mostly stock for now, late box with 20mm shaft, late pinion bearing. 3.80, 2.06,1.32, 0.89, 4.125. stock diff. rebushed gear carrier and nosecone, HD aluminium plate, MS bearing stop plate has the Berg centre mount and kafer truss bar. have plans to put in a Quaife TBD when budget permits. tyres currently on radials 205/70
will check out the Empi shafts and also the "made in USA" ones. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
slalombuggy
Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 9147
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:24 am Post subject: Re: swing axle race axles |
|
|
A good friend of mine ran 12.1s (and a few 11s)with stock axles for years and never broke them. 200 runs a year
brad |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:30 am Post subject: Re: swing axle race axles |
|
|
Is this trans already together, or is it something you’re having built? If having it built, get a 3.78 1st year, and a super diff. The 3.80 1st, and two gear diff will likely fail before the stock axles. Samba member gears prefers to use a stock diff machined for two circle clips for the side gears, and uses the 15/10 tooth combination differential gears. That would help, but the more common 17/11 tooth gear sets won’t last long.
| slalombuggy wrote: |
A good friend of mine ran 12.1s (and a few 11s)with stock axles for years and never broke them. 200 runs a year
brad |
A fellow racer in a series I ran in broke a stock axle in a properly set up 66 Beetle with a 1776. There are extreme durability examples, and extreme failure examples. You can’t go back in time to see the life the car was driven in to evaluate the durability of a 50+ year old part. I’ve driven cars to the track with drivelines with questionable durability, and ones overbuilt to handle twice the power the car was making. It’s a lot more fun when you’re 110% sure the car’s going to make it home.
Last edited by [email protected] on Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
clooney
Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2011
Posts: 116
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:34 am Post subject: Re: swing axle race axles |
|
|
| [email protected] wrote: |
| Is this trans already together, or is it something you’re having built? If having it built, get a 3.78 1st year, and a super diff. The 3.80 1st, and two gear diff will likely fail before the stock axles. Samba member gears prefers to use a stock diff machined for two circle clips for the side gears, and uses the 15/10 tooth combination differential gears. That would help, but the more common 17/11 tooth gear sets won’t last long. |
already together. been running for 3 years now only on the street. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bugsy61
Samba Member
Joined: March 20, 2011
Posts: 256
Location: Peoria, Illinois
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:16 am Post subject: Re: swing axle race axles |
|
|
| I broke the right side at the track, and it took out the transmission. Don't remember the details, it's been too long ago. I only changed the broken one with a SAW axle. Two years later, I broke the left side on the street. My buggy only weighs 1300 pounds, and I've never side stepped a clutch pedal in my life. Suck it up and replace those 55 year old parts. There are only so many torsional twists and rebounds in a bar of steel. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nsracing
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2003
Posts: 9467
Location: NOVA
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:25 am Post subject: Re: swing axle race axles |
|
|
The Sway-Away Axles are a nice and fat. Just beautiful. While you are at it might as well get the 300M input shaft from Weddle.
Almost everybody who upgrades to performance engines will mostly neglect the trans. A fresh trans should go along with the engine upgrade.
It is same w/ the unwritten rule - you kiss the left, you also kiss the right.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
oldschool5er
Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2007
Posts: 804
Location: Ohio
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:57 am Post subject: Re: swing axle race axles |
|
|
I can vouch for SAW. I use them extensively in off road swing axle classes. I have lost just one on my own personnal car. I took it out last year after building it 25 years ago and it had a broken fulcrum plate which dug into the spade. It wasn't a SAW problem. The spades still looked really nice after all that time. They might be softer as has been said as they have been abused for so long with high torsional loads without breaking. Not even stock axles will survive a broken fulcrum digging in to it unless you catch it quick. Note: these were even long axles but the car was airborne half it's life in racing lol.
_________________
HRE in Westerville,Ohio
Full machine shop with all types of CNC. Rapid prototyping available, CNC Plasma cutting, 3D printing and Laser engraving. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wheel607
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2004
Posts: 1847
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: swing axle race axles |
|
|
| [email protected] wrote: |
| Occasional trips to the strip is the variable. If you’re going to do a burnout, and tach it up for any decent 60ft. at the track, it’s only a matter of time before the stock ones break. If you can garuntee the wheels will spin, and your suspension is set up to the point you have zero wheel hop, you could get away with the stock axles for a little while. If you’re driving the car to the track, get the aftermarket axles. I’ve been told by more than one person the Sway-A-Way axles are nicer for a dedicated track car since they are a little softer material, and have more of a torsional twist to absorb the shock load. Unfortunately this softer material allows the spades to wear out quicker. For a mostly street driven car, I would get a set of Empi’s swing axles. They are a little harder, and will wear better in the spade area. |
X2 to the Empi axles...I have actually used these because SAW wasn't available.
They work fine and are much cheaper......Most Empi is crap, these are not. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wheel607
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2004
Posts: 1847
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: swing axle race axles |
|
|
| [email protected] wrote: |
| Occasional trips to the strip is the variable. If you’re going to do a burnout, and tach it up for any decent 60ft. at the track, it’s only a matter of time before the stock ones break. If you can garuntee the wheels will spin, and your suspension is set up to the point you have zero wheel hop, you could get away with the stock axles for a little while. If you’re driving the car to the track, get the aftermarket axles. I’ve been told by more than one person the Sway-A-Way axles are nicer for a dedicated track car since they are a little softer material, and have more of a torsional twist to absorb the shock load. Unfortunately this softer material allows the spades to wear out quicker. For a mostly street driven car, I would get a set of Empi’s swing axles. They are a little harder, and will wear better in the spade area. |
X2 to the Empi axles...I have actually used these because SAW wasn't available.
They work fine and are much cheaper......Most Empi is crap, these are not. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
HotStreetVw
Samba Member
Joined: October 03, 2004
Posts: 871
Location: Wild West
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:54 am Post subject: Re: swing axle race axles |
|
|
EMPI axles cheaper than SAW? Not the last time I bought axles and SAW wasn’t available.
_________________
4inBhore
50 Split - 2724cc NA. Haltech injected
62 Notchback - 2542cc Turbo WIP |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: swing axle race axles |
|
|
| HotStreetVw wrote: |
| EMPI axles cheaper than SAW? Not the last time I bought axles and SAW wasn’t available. |
I’ve found them to be very similar in price, around $500 for a pair. There are deals to be had on either axle brand depending on the vendor, and shipping charges. Mcmscott had an issue with a Sway-A-Way set having the splines cut too deep to the point that the bearing inner sealing o-ring didn’t have a full surface to seal. Weddle is out of stock on the Sway-A-Way’s currently, so maybe a new batch is in the works to correct the spline issue. With the trend moving to CV’s, I’m just happy someone is still making the swing axle stuff. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3464
Location: Paradise, Ca
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: swing axle race axles |
|
|
I just checked ebay, and Sway-a-Way are available for $260 a pair, but the Empis are sold 250 each. Huge difference. There has been rumors that the Sway a way are not what they used to be, and the EMPI's might be better. Empis are more expenisive then Swayaway, imagine that.
I got a set of Sway A Ways from Benco recently and they been fine, despite being under $300(only feeding 100 ponies threw them). When things get drastically cheaper, to me red flag goes up.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
HotStreetVw
Samba Member
Joined: October 03, 2004
Posts: 871
Location: Wild West
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: swing axle race axles |
|
|
About two months ago I ordered a set of SAW for my Notchback but the shop wasn’t able to find a set (short axles). SAW didn’t have an ETA and they couldn’t locate a set at another shop. The EMPIs ended up costing quite a bit more, but they look like quality axles.
_________________
4inBhore
50 Split - 2724cc NA. Haltech injected
62 Notchback - 2542cc Turbo WIP |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
busey
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2016
Posts: 420
Location: Sun City Arizona
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: swing axle race axles |
|
|
| clooney wrote: |
are they required for a 180hp type 1 mostly street use, occasional trips to the strip.
how strong are the stock short axles before they give way?
Weddle has SAW and "Made in USA" axles, both almost similarly priced. |
On that note in bold, would a stock diff / 3.88 R&P fresh rebuilt trans with stock internals benefit from Sway-Aways OR will something inside the case break first anyway making the adding of race axles a non factor??
Also, someone mentioned that while replacing to race axles might as well install a 300m input shaft from Weddle at the same time. which is the input shaft, if its labeled differently on that photo?
_________________
No turning back now, "Its Blow thru or No thru" baby! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Scott SD
Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2010
Posts: 153
Location: San Diego, CA
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:59 pm Post subject: Re: swing axle race axles |
|
|
| busey wrote: |
| clooney wrote: |
are they required for a 180hp type 1 mostly street use, occasional trips to the strip.
how strong are the stock short axles before they give way?
Weddle has SAW and "Made in USA" axles, both almost similarly priced. |
On that note in bold, would a stock diff / 3.88 R&P fresh rebuilt trans with stock internals benefit from Sway-Aways OR will something inside the case break first anyway making the adding of race axles a non factor??
Also, someone mentioned that while replacing to race axles might as well install a 300m input shaft from Weddle at the same time. which is the input shaft, if its labeled differently on that photo?
|
Is it a 3.80 1st gear? It is a gamble, what is going to break first. Axles, diff, or 1st gear. 3.88 is stout, no worries there. Best combo is a 3.78 unmodified mainshaft with an 091 1st gear idler, super diff, and better axles.
Input shaft is not in that pic. It is the shaft inside the bellhousing. 300m shaft is not needed. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
earthquake
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2008
Posts: 3984
Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:31 am Post subject: Re: swing axle race axles |
|
|
If I was going to go drag racing I would go IRS and use Datsun Z car half shafts, I know for a fact they will handle over 500hp, a buddy of mine drag races a SBC powered 280Z that makes over 500HP.
Casey
_________________
74 CLASS 11 LOOK-A-LIKE
69 DUNE BUGGY
79 INTERNATIONAL SCOUT II
05 SCION XB SERIES RELEASE 2[#437]
95 Chevy C3500 dually
98 Ford E150
Link to Kelly J. Nolte 3/20/53 - 11/6/08
https://time-zonelabs.blogspot.com/p/about-kelly.html
DEATH TO CHINGERS!
[From a military recruitment poster in the novel "The Stainless Steel Rat" By Harry Harrison] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:43 am Post subject: Re: swing axle race axles |
|
|
| Scott SD wrote: |
| busey wrote: |
On that note in bold, would a stock diff / 3.88 R&P fresh rebuilt trans with stock internals benefit from Sway-Aways OR will something inside the case break first anyway making the adding of race axles a non factor??
Also, someone mentioned that while replacing to race axles might as well install a 300m input shaft from Weddle at the same time. which is the input shaft, if its labeled differently on that photo?
|
Is it a 3.80 1st gear? It is a gamble, what is going to break first. Axles, diff, or 1st gear. 3.88 is stout, no worries there. Best combo is a 3.78 unmodified mainshaft with an 091 1st gear idler, super diff, and better axles.
Input shaft is not in that pic. It is the shaft inside the bellhousing. 300m shaft is not needed. |
I guess it depends on what you are doing with the car? Like mentioned, the spider gears in the diff, and a 3.80 1st gear will most likely break before the stock axles would. I’d spend the money on improving those first before getting heavier axles. If you do improve on the diff/1st gear/axles, and are racing with slicks, the 300m input shaft isn’t a bad idea to help absorb some of the shock loading. It’s all about moving the weakness in durability up the chain with each progressive upgrade. Simply adding axles to an otherwise stock trans is skipping over some of the bottom links of the chain. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
