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Paulbeard Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015 Posts: 2604 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:55 pm Post subject: Wiring cleanup questions |
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Uff da, what a mess I'm finding in here. Removing unused vampire taps and painting with plastic tape as I go and removing ones I installed that I now wish I hadn't.
Some questions.
Is this the old cig lighter plug? That has been gone three years now and this can go with it, as well as those taps.
This continues to bewilder:
Some of the dash lighting wires (the lights for the front/rear fans, the mystery plug above) are all in that bundle. There was a cruddy looking metal crimp on there back when all this was new to me. Was that how VW ran all these wires, just a big clump of unfused wire?
How would you wire in a radio and some gauges without resorting to hacking up the wire to the ignition switch (I cut out two taps within 2 inches of each other on one wire) or otherwise butchering things. Seems like that dash wire feed could go to a breakout for things like gauge lighting. I can't see behind my fuse panel to see if there are spare terminals for always on or switched power.
And I really glad I ordered two ground trees: I can see one being used up right away for this godawful thing.
Advice and answers welcome. I have time to do this right, I think. The new heater core that is as the heart of all this won't be here til tomorrow and I see a couple of more days work here (given the short cold days we have here, working outdoors). _________________ Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50265
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:53 pm Post subject: Re: Wiring cleanup questions |
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I have said for years that VW engineers had a party when they were pretty much done with the overall design of the van and ready to work on the wiring. Once they got all good and drunk they set out to finish up the layout for the wiring.
If you look at the wiring diagrams in the Bentley you can see what fuses VW intended for people to use for the radio and other accessories. Your stereo may require both full time power and ACC power, which VW didn't design into the system. Some people use the key in circuit off of the ignition switch and others just use the #15 circuit on the ignition switch and don't use the stereo when the engine isn't running. I have both of my wires hooked to a hot lead and then use the instructions in my owners manual to figure out how to turn the stereo off. |
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9895 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:12 pm Post subject: Re: Wiring cleanup questions |
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Look at the Bentley wiring diagram for 1987.
page 97.111
near the bottom, a small circle with A4 inside
next to a junction of 6 grey/blue wires
page 97.103, lower right, show circle with A4 inside, describes it.
(typo alert, says 586, should say 58b)
So yes, all the wires were originally crimped together.
There IS a fuse for the wires, shown right there in the diagram on 97.111
Mark
Paulbeard wrote: |
Uff da, what a mess I'm finding in here.....
This continues to bewilder:
Some of the dash lighting wires (the lights for the front/rear fans, the mystery plug above) are all in that bundle. There was a cruddy looking metal crimp on there back when all this was new to me. Was that how VW ran all these wires, just a big clump of unfused wire?
..... |
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Paulbeard Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015 Posts: 2604 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:38 pm Post subject: Re: Wiring cleanup questions |
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crazyvwvanman wrote: |
Look at the Bentley wiring diagram for 1987.
page 97.111
near the bottom, a small circle with A4 inside
next to a junction of 6 grey/blue wires
page 97.103, lower right, show circle with A4 inside, describes it.
(typo alert, says 586, should say 58b)
So yes, all the wires were originally crimped together.
The IS a fuse, shown right there.
Mark
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Not in mine…97.111 is the description/current track for a lot of other stuff (A/T console, backup/brake lites, cruise control, etc). I don't see the A4 on 97.103 either. That page is for 86, if that matters. Looks like the pages I need start at 97.147. I'm not proficient at reading these…but I see the A4 mentioned there with the typo so same page, different number (mine is 97.148). What does 56b tell me?
If these were all crimped together at production time, I'll just make sure they are adequately protected w strain relief. And that wad of grounds will get routed somewhere better. _________________ Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9895 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: Wiring cleanup questions |
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VW uses a standardized numbering system for vehicle wiring.
The 58b refers to the adjustable panel lighting circuit, coming from pin 58b of the headlight switch.
Yes, different versions of the Bentley have some different page numbers.
If you look at the very bottom right of the page there is a rectangle with a drawing number in it. Mine says 97-2631.
I assume yours says the same if it is the identical wiring diagram.
Mark |
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The Carrot Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2013 Posts: 173 Location: Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: Wiring cleanup questions |
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That is interesting, I was just working with the bentley open to those pages but for my 1990 Van, where A4 is listed under the heading "welded wiring connections"
The current track numbers of that circuit are pretty close though...
Thanks for this added info. _________________ 1990 Orly Blue Carat |
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9895 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: Wiring cleanup questions |
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The 90 wiring is slightly different in that area, depending on the vin number. There is a different version of the headlight switch and the fuse for that adjustable dash lighting is moved to the main fuse panel where earlier vans had a separate fuse mounted above the main panel fuses.
Yes, the place where all the grey/blue wires were crimped together was a bare metal crimp, listed in the later diagram as a "welded wiring connection".
Mark
The Carrot wrote: |
That is interesting, I was just working with the bentley open to those pages but for my 1990 Van, where A4 is listed under the heading "welded wiring connections"
The current track numbers of that circuit are pretty close though...
Thanks for this added info. |
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Paulbeard Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015 Posts: 2604 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: Wiring cleanup questions |
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crazyvwvanman wrote: |
VW uses a standardized numbering system for vehicle wiring.
The 58b refers to the adjustable panel lighting circuit, coming from pin 58b of the headlight switch.
Yes, different versions of the Bentley have some different page numbers.
If you look at the very bottom right of the page there is a rectangle with a drawing number in it. Mine says 97-2631.
I assume yours says the same if it is the identical wiring diagram.
Mark |
Got it. That's page 97.156 in my Bible. And yes, I see 58B w a 10A fuse. I had hoped the 16 denoted the fuse number but alas, no. That's for the horn.
Learning all the time…
So to power my gauge lights I need to tap pin 58b. Ideally, I want to get as close to the source as I can, so I can avoid all these short runs and taps. Maybe it's wasteful but it breaks my brain looking at it otherwise. How can I identify a run position power source for the gauge themselves?
My circuit 3 is powered by the aux battery so maybe that's the direction to head for powering the radio.
Thanks for the patient explanations. The fog is clearing a little on how this is organized. I really need to debone my Bentley and remove the sections I don't need, as others have done. _________________ Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9895 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: Wiring cleanup questions |
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The dark box with the 16 inside is a location on a map. If you look at the very first page of the 87 diagram section it has a map drawing of the fuse/relay panel and there are dark boxes with numbers in them. The dark box with 16 inside shows you where that fuse for 58b circuit is. It also says this just to the right of the map.
Mark
Paulbeard wrote: |
.... And yes, I see 58B w a 10A fuse. I had hoped the 16 denoted the fuse number but alas, no. That's for the horn.
...... |
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Paulbeard Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015 Posts: 2604 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: Wiring cleanup questions |
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crazyvwvanman wrote: |
The dark box with the 16 inside is a location on a map. If you look at the very first page of the 87 diagram section it has a map drawing of the fuse/relay panel and there are dark boxes with numbers in them. The dark box with 16 inside shows you where that fuse for 58b circuit is. It also says this just to the right of the map.
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It's like a treasure map or something…this makes sense but I expect I won't use it enough to keep it in my head.
How many wires should be in that A4 bundle? It looks like about 6, last I looked. _________________ Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
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wcdennis Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2004 Posts: 954 Location: Winston-Salem NC
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: Wiring cleanup questions |
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crazyvwvanman wrote: |
The 90 wiring is slightly different in that area, depending on the vin number. There is a different version of the headlight switch and the fuse for that adjustable dash lighting is moved to the main fuse panel where earlier vans had a separate fuse mounted above the main panel fuses.
Yes, the place where all the grey/blue wires were crimped together was a bare metal crimp, listed in the later diagram as a "welded wiring connection".
Mark
The Carrot wrote: |
That is interesting, I was just working with the bentley open to those pages but for my 1990 Van, where A4 is listed under the heading "welded wiring connections"
The current track numbers of that circuit are pretty close though...
Thanks for this added info. |
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While, trying to figure out why all his dash lights weren't working, we found the bare metal crimp on a friend's van. It looked stock, but I find it hard to believe that there was not ever insulation on it. Did VW actually leave that metal crimp exposed, or did the insulation on his come off? We covered it with heat shrink and assumed we had found the reason the fuse had blown. |
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Paulbeard Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015 Posts: 2604 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:47 pm Post subject: Re: Wiring cleanup questions |
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wcdennis wrote: |
While, trying to figure out why all his dash lights weren't working, we found the bare metal crimp on a friend's van. It looked stock, but I find it hard to believe that there was not ever insulation on it. Did VW actually leave that metal crimp exposed, or did the insulation on his come off? We covered it with heat shrink and assumed we had found the reason the fuse had blown. |
I found it as a metal crimp that didn't look like it belonged there. No insulation or anything. It will be wrapped up when I finish this. I think are about 6 wires in there now. _________________ Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
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ZsZ Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2010 Posts: 1642 Location: Budapest Hungary, Europe
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Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:49 am Post subject: Re: Wiring cleanup questions |
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crazyvwvanman wrote: |
VW uses a standardized numbering system for vehicle wiring.
The 58b refers to the adjustable panel lighting circuit, coming from pin 58b of the headlight switch.
Yes, different versions of the Bentley have some different page numbers.
If you look at the very bottom right of the page there is a rectangle with a drawing number in it. Mine says 97-2631.
I assume yours says the same if it is the identical wiring diagram.
Mark |
all german cars (probably all equipment too) have the wiring numbering system according to the DIN (German Industrial Standard)
Im not sure if the wire colors are involved in DIN or just VW specific of that era, but on 80s VWs the wire colors are standardized too.
Brown - ground, red - batt. pos., always on, black - ign pos., grey with blue tracer - dash illumination, etc. _________________ Zoltan
1.9 MTdi 2wd Multivan (ex Caravelle)
Van since 2006, engine since 2008 |
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Paulbeard Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015 Posts: 2604 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:07 pm Post subject: Re: Wiring cleanup questions |
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A tip of the crash helmet to Mark, aka crazyvwvanman…when I got everything buttoned up, I started her up and was greeted by the oil pressure light staying on, so I had get my gauge pod re-hooked up.
I was able to get power from the rear window heater switch for the key on terminals. I thought i had the right kind of piggyback terminals but I ended up just shoving a stripped wire down where that terminal is and zip-tying them together. Barnyard fix but better than those *^^*&^ing taps that I removed a dozen of yesterday. The gauges work (still need to run grounds for the lights) so I know there is oil pressure. _________________ Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
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