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Mysteries of the Tristar Doka, part 1: What is this engine?
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SyncroButter
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:05 pm    Post subject: Mysteries of the Tristar Doka, part 1: What is this engine? Reply with quote

Putting my questions up front:
Any ideas/theories on what engine I have on my hands here?
Since it appears that ECU and ignition etc are for an 83-85 Digijet 1.9 and the engine block and sensors are from 89, should I be concerned that some of the items on the engine (e.g. my Temp II sensor which is the 86-91 part 025-906-041A or my AFM which is from an MV) are not compatible with/not working well with the earlier engine management? The reason I ask about this is that I started digging into the engine to solve a rich running conditionÖ
Can I put the coveted "112i" sticker on my Doka?

As many of you know there is a stock Vanagon engine from the EU called a DJ engine, which puts out 112 HP using higher compression (10.3:1 vs 8.8:1 in the stock US motor) but is otherwise similar to the stock 2.1 MV engine sold in the US from 86 onward. My 89 Tristar Doka (from Sweden originally but had owners in CA, OR and WA before reaching me) originally came equipped with the 112DJ engine from the factory (build plate has the code, there is a 98 octane sticker next to the gas door), but when I bought it there was an MV engine in thereÖ or so I thought.

Now after digging into the engine for the first time I think I may actually have a bit of a franken-engine and am looking for help determining what exactly I have on my hands. The engine goes like a scalded cat compared to the MV that came in my syncro westy, but I had chalked this up to the different vehicle weight and having a 5 speed trans. I have an engine rebuild receipt from 2014 from a now-defunct shop but that was two owners ago and the guy I bought from was not knowledgeable about the engine history and the receipt doesn't have any helpful info.

Engine case: My engine case serial starts with MV (MV052339). When I bought the Doka I saw this and concluded that I have a 2.1MV in there since my understanding is that the DJ engines have serials starting with DJ. But after researching a bit more it looks like the engine block is the same between both engines, perhaps the original DJ parts were moved to a better condition block?

Cylinders: not sure how to ID these from the outside to know if they are the high compression DJ cylinders, any visual cues I should be looking for?

Distributor: Has the vacuum advance unit on the side

ECU: Digijet ECU, part number seems to be for a 83-85 1.9 digijet engine (sticker reads Bosch, 0 280 000 501, 025 906 021). I've seen reference here on the Samba about the DJ engine having an "F prefix ECU" but see no evidence of an F anywhere.

Catalytic converter and O2 sensor: these are present but look bodged together (even I can do better welding than what I see on this cat). The 02 sensor has a single wire going straight to the ECU, have not dissected but definitely not stock wiring as the O2 wire is outside of the "plug" part of the harness where it meets the ECU. My understanding (which could be wrong!) is that no DJ engine came with an 02 sensor or a cat but that the 83-85 1.9 Digijet engines from the US did use these. Since I seem to have an ECU from the 1.9, perhaps these were added (along with the ECU) to pass US emissions?
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hdenter
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Mysteries of the Tristar Doka, part 1: What is this engine? Reply with quote

The only way you will be able to determine what "motor" you have will be to take it apart and see the Pistons. The cylnders are the same as the 2.1 and 1.9. That you have a digijet ECU is encouraging and so is the distributor with vacuum advance. However, the early cases and the MV cases as well as all the piston/cylnder sets and cranks can be interchanged as long as the right crank is installed with the right Pistons. You could use a stiff wire in the sparkplug hole to measure the stroke to confirm if you at least have the right crank for a 2.1 MV or DJ motor. You could even have a 2.2 or larger motor... Do a proper compression test, if it is higher than usual that might offer a clue. How bad do you need to know?

Hans
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Mysteries of the Tristar Doka, part 1: What is this engine? Reply with quote

hdenter wrote:
How bad do you need to know?
Hans


Interesting question... not that badly I suppose, the engine is running and taking me to work every day. However it's time to dig into deferred maintenance/ tune up (and a lot of cleaning up of PO's work... the wiring harness is a mess with a lot of blade connections etc) as well as digging into some running related issues. So I guess no urgency per se, mostly just trying to make sure that I know more about the engine management etc. so that I can wrap my head around what I've got and don't screw anything up e.g. for sensors and senders buy those for a 2.1 86-89, for ignition and engine management buy those for an 1.9 83-85, etc. Thanks for the response!

Running issue #1: Starts great, drives great for first minute or so then bogs down from minute 2 to 10 then starts running better. If I restart the engine at around minute 5 it suddenly runs much better. Hypothesis: bad 02/Lambda signal

Running issue #2: burns very rich, especially when thoroughly warmed up. Hypothesis: bad temp II or bad O2/lambda
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Mysteries of the Tristar Doka, part 1: What is this engine? Reply with quote

I know you are asking about the big picture, and here is another option. Since an engine tear-down and build is pretty costly (in both money and time or both), perhaps you could contact a few of the local Transplant shops in your area. Get a pulled-for-transplant but still fine running 2.1, and then you can set about the build of your dreams on your own terms while the used engine pushes you around town. Heck, sometimes one of these pulls show up in the Karma section.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Mysteries of the Tristar Doka, part 1: What is this engine? Reply with quote

Interesting problem here. Well it sure sounds as though you are running the stock DigiJet DJ harness and ECU. What Iím puzzled with the single wire O2 sensor and corresponding wire running to the ECU. The DJs were a Non-Cat engine and as such had no ECU provision for an O2 sensor.

Iíve had several DJs and your reference to acceleration between a DJ and an MV is both Funny and accurate. My guess is the rebuild shop used the P&Cs from the DJ.

I would strongly encourage you to start your searches with every chassis and body ground. Vac leaks are also problematic. The ECU is a sealed unit and based on your comments about the O2 wiring, I wonder if the ECU case has been opened and if so, is corrosion inside the ECU? (Remember the ECUs in DJs are in the engine compartment and are exposed to the elements)
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Mysteries of the Tristar Doka, part 1: What is this engine? Reply with quote

The van was in CA for a period. A PO may have swapped in 1.9 Digijet ECU and harness with the O2 option and added the Cat to meet CA emissions...

Hans
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Mysteries of the Tristar Doka, part 1: What is this engine? Reply with quote

bobbyblack wrote:
I know you are asking about the big picture, and here is another option. Since an engine tear-down and build is pretty costly (in both money and time or both), perhaps you could contact a few of the local Transplant shops in your area. Get a pulled-for-transplant but still fine running 2.1, and then you can set about the build of your dreams on your own terms while the used engine pushes you around town. Heck, sometimes one of these pulls show up in the Karma section.


Nope, not looking to tear down or replace... wife and I did a Bostig swap ourselves on our 86 and would go that route if I was looking to replace the whole lump, but for the time being just want to get the current engine running tip-top and that starts with figuring out what I have so that both the troubleshooting and the regular maintenance work out Smile

I'm very familiar with/comfortable working on the 2.1 MV series that came in my syncro FWIW, not scared of digging into the engine at all. And if I ever decide I want to use it again it is sitting on my shop floor at this very moment Smile I actually snagged the good temp II from it last night, only to find that the thermostat housing and the senders are different from the 86 Syncro MV to the 89 whatever this is Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Mysteries of the Tristar Doka, part 1: What is this engine? Reply with quote

In addition to the wire connections, temp2 and grounds, your poor cold start running condition could also be attributed to an Aux air valve that is stuck closed.

Hans
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Mysteries of the Tristar Doka, part 1: What is this engine? Reply with quote

CdnVWJunkie wrote:
Interesting problem here. Well it sure sounds as though you are running the stock DigiJet DJ harness and ECU.

Part number for the ECU comes up as the 83-85 Digijet ECU, my understanding is that the DJ ECU would have the same part number but would also have a trailing "F" and I don't see this. All of my info is from the part sticker on the outside of the ECU. Also worth noting something I did not mention earlier: the ECU has a grease pen serial hand written on it, which says to me that it is not original to the vehicle.
Agreed that it appears I have the original DJ harness.

CdnVWJunkie wrote:
What Iím puzzled with the single wire O2 sensor and corresponding wire running to the ECU. The DJs were a Non-Cat engine and as such had no ECU provision for an O2 sensor.

That is my understanding as well, I suspect that the ECU from an 85 US Digijet has been used and I think (but could be wrong?) that these used a cat and O2 sensor?

CdnVWJunkie wrote:

I would strongly encourage you to start your searches with every chassis and body ground. Vac leaks are also problematic. The ECU is a sealed unit and based on your comments about the O2 wiring, I wonder if the ECU case has been opened and if so, is corrosion inside the ECU? (Remember the ECUs in DJs are in the engine compartment and are exposed to the elements)

Good point, I will check the actual connection at the ECU (which I need to do anyway to see what is going on with the O2 wire).

Thanks!
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Mysteries of the Tristar Doka, part 1: What is this engine? Reply with quote

hdenter wrote:
The van was in CA for a period. A PO may have swapped in 1.9 Digijet ECU and harness with the O2 option and added the Cat to meet CA emissions...


Yes, I am starting to think this is the most likely scenario and the bits of evidence seems to back it up: cat and o2 sensor which look like a retrofit, engine harness plug to ECU with o2 sensor wire retrofitted on there, ECU which looks to be the 83-85 digijet version but not the later DJ version.

hdenter wrote:
In addition to the wire connections, temp2 and grounds, your poor cold start running condition could also be attributed to an Aux air valve that is stuck closed.


Cold start is actually great, the running issue I am encountering is during warmup (stumbles and bogs) and then at full temp (runs very rich). If I run the engine for 5 minutes (partially warmed up) the engine bogs down, accelerates poorly etc. However if I stop and start the engine (e.g. rolling down the road, quick ignition off for <5 s then ignition on and let the clutch out to start) the issue is completely resolved. Strange.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Mysteries of the Tristar Doka, part 1: What is this engine? Reply with quote

Sound to me like bad grounds. Have you cleaned them and replaced the bad connectors as needed?
My guess would be that someone put a MV in it and maybe just used 2.2 pistons and cylinders. DJ pistons are expensive, ask me how I know.
Do you have an idle control relay behind the right tailllight? My guess would be no, just because you have a cat and a O2 sensor. If you do have a ICR behind the tail light it should be either an A or C.
Only the DJ has a Digijet with out a cat and with an ICR. In the early days when these were being brought in as Imports, It was common that the importers would put a cat on them with a 02 sensor and just try and bury the wire to make it look like it was hooked up.
On both of mine I pulled the DJ harness and put a good MV in its place. I never noticed any running difference between the 2 really.
Where did this T star come from, I'd love to get a look at it.

Stacy Stacy
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:07 am    Post subject: Re: Mysteries of the Tristar Doka, part 1: What is this engine? Reply with quote

16CVs wrote:
Sound to me like bad grounds. Have you cleaned them and replaced the bad connectors as needed?

No, really just getting around to the basic maintenance and troubleshooting now. Cleaning grounds is definitely on the list!

16CVs wrote:
do you have an idle control relay behind the right tailllight?

I do indeed, see pica pics below

16CVs wrote:
where did this T star come from

I bought it locally here in Seattle, happy to show it off any time. Original delivery code is northern sweden.

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Detail of Relay behind the right tailight

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Relay behind the right tailight

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Welded on bung with O2 sensor, cat

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Ecu detail

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:11 am    Post subject: Re: Mysteries of the Tristar Doka, part 1: What is this engine? Reply with quote

What a mess, did you notice the vacuum hose off of the Distibutor? Hard to tell where the wires from the O2 are going. I think you'll find that you only need a single wire O2 and someone added power and ground to it for some reason. As noted earlier it shouldn't even have a O2 sensor.
Someone did some witchcraft on this and you're going to have to figure it out.
Some of those grounds do not look so great, I'd dump all of those Insulated connectors and get some OE style open barrel connectors and get a proper crimp. I'd cut those things back and make sure the wire is not corroded.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 5:33 am    Post subject: Re: Mysteries of the Tristar Doka, part 1: What is this engine? Reply with quote

Take a look at the pistons the easy way to see if they are flat for the 10:1 compression or dished for the 8:1 compression is the way to go here to figure out what you have.
However, you do not want to take the engine apart so you are stuck in that regard?

If you have a smartphone buy this nice little borescope and pull a plug and shove this down into the cylinder being careful to not get it stuck.

Cost ya 16 bucks + shipping.

https://www.amazon.com/USB-Borescope-Endoscope-And...&psc=1

Note: this borescope is for an Android phone, but search around as they have them of the iPhone too.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:49 am    Post subject: Re: Mysteries of the Tristar Doka, part 1: What is this engine? Reply with quote

16CVs wrote:
What a mess, did you notice the vacuum hose off of the Distibutor?

I did... when I uploaded the photos! When ID'ing the distributor I looked for the "disk" where the diaphragm for the advance would be located and saw the vacuum line on the "back", somehow missed that there was a second nipple on the "front"... I don't think I have previously encountered this on a vacuum advance actually, the other distributors I own (1973 beetle, 1938 Buick) all have a single vacuum line. Looks like it is supposed to attach near the throttle body but I don't see a loose line, I will investigate.


16CVs wrote:
Hard to tell where the wires from the O2 are going.

Yeah, should have taken a better photo.... all three wires go into that plastic loom you can see zip tied in some of the shots. You have one wire that is yellow and green which runs up to the ECU (spade attachment, then a wire that sort of sneaks in under the dust boot to the ECU) which should be the lambda signal, then another wire (brown) that runs to the mess of grounds on the engine block, then another wire (light blue) which I have not traced but which I would assume is tied into power.


16CVs wrote:
Someone did some witchcraft on this and you're going to have to figure it out.

Ha, tell me about it... primary driver for this thread, just trying to figure out what's what e.g. I was totally unaware of the idle control relay until you asked if I have one... on my syncro I believe that area was all air box plumbing. So I am simultaneously learning about how this platform in general differs from my syncro (the ECU is located in the engine bay?? The Temp II sensor is not a screw in type and instead uses a rubber washer?) without the benefit of knowing it is a bone stock anything.


16CVs wrote:
Some of those grounds do not look so great, I'd dump all of those Insulated connectors and get some OE style open barrel connectors and get a proper crimp. I'd cut those things back and make sure the wire is not corroded.

Way ahead of you, I took one look at this engine bay and knew I would be investing some time re-doing the connections etc, grounds and otherwise. I do not trust much of this work and am dedicated to getting everything "cleaned up" not just with proper connections and crimps (I have a great IWISS tool with the interchangeable dies that I love to use) but also with loom and zip ties etc to route and take stress off the wiring.
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Gone but not forgotten: 1989 Porsche 944, 1973 Standard Beetle
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:56 am    Post subject: Re: Mysteries of the Tristar Doka, part 1: What is this engine? Reply with quote

Steve M. wrote:
Take a look at the pistons the easy way to see if they are flat for the 10:1 compression or dished for the 8:1 compression is the way to go here to figure out what you have.
However, you do not want to take the engine apart so you are stuck in that regard?


Ah, I do already own a borescope (one of those tools I use way more than I thought I would, IR thermometer is another) and didn't realize that the "face" of the piston would be flat for a DJ to get the higher compression, though of course this makes total sense. I will pop out a spark plug and take a look. Thanks for the suggestion!
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Mysteries of the Tristar Doka, part 1: What is this engine? Reply with quote

I would expect a 10:1 engine to have at least 200 psi engine compression with a stock cam. Easy enough to check that. Probably should anyhow. Disable the fuel pump from running while you hold the throttle wide open and run the compression test. I usually ground the coil wire to avoid any sparks.
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