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Ericlottaallthat
Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2016
Posts: 138
Location: McCune, Kansas
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 Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:50 am Post subject: Fuel tank outlet seal |
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I was wondering if this is the order that the seals go onto the fuel outlet. Does the washer on the screen need a seal? Should I leave the screen on?
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:04 am Post subject: Re: Fuel tank outlet seal |
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leave the screen on - it is the first line of defense against debris. Can't tell you about the seals.
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EDragnDean
Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2005
Posts: 1148
Location: Vancouver, WA
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:40 am Post subject: Re: Fuel tank outlet seal |
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Get rid of the screen. You can install an external inline strainer with the same exact function....keeping grit out of the pump....for less than $5.
Outside of that...mhaving a sock filter in the tank ...where there is no fuel pump in the tank to require it to be inside of there.....is kind of ludicrous. Its quite common that they silt up and starve the pump.
When you then roll to a stop in the middle of nowhere.....you best have a large container on hand to catch all of the fuel as you pull out the tube and clogged sock filter.....or it all runs out on the ground and you walk to the next gas station.
You can buy inline silt filters.....which are fairly small.....by the bag. They are commonly used in diesel vehicles as pre-filters for the injection pump and are replaced on a fairly regular basis.
Buy them by the dozen and they are about $2 each. Ray |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:44 am Post subject: Re: Fuel tank outlet seal |
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| Quote: |
| .is kind of ludicrous |
The purpose of the sock is that when debris begins to plug it, it doesn't do so in an instant. The lowest part clogs first. In your method Ray the drain can plug instantly with a small piece of paper, rubber, anything big enough to block the opening. With the sock that does not happen. That protection has been in almost every gas tank in some form since at least 1940.
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Ericlottaallthat
Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2016
Posts: 138
Location: McCune, Kansas
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Fuel tank outlet seal |
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| The red washer (seal) won’t fit on top of the screen without drilling it out. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel tank outlet seal |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| Quote: |
| .is kind of ludicrous |
The purpose of the sock is that when debris begins to plug it, it doesn't do so in an instant. The lowest part clogs first. In your method Ray the drain can plug instantly with a small piece of paper, rubber, anything big enough to block the opening. With the sock that does not happen. That protection has been in almost every gas tank in some form since at least 1940. |
The SCREEN itself is not ludicrous...simply its location...inside the tank.
And..the vast majority of vehicles starting in the early 1900's onward...had their silt filters...outside of the tank either in the pump or in a separate serviceable module.
Just look at the strainer screen inside of the Pierburg fuel pumps for carbed models.
And for example:
1940's Willeys Jeep
I believe this for a range of Fords
This is for the Model T
The point being that for eons...the sock strainers/sediment filters were EXTERNAL on millions of vehicles. Why they felt the need to put them in the tank...I have no idea.
There is "0" benefit...and its not just VW that did it....though putting sock filters in the tank...when there is no pump in the actual tank to require the filter to be there on its inlet...is just stupid....and the vast majority of manufacturers that still had and have external pumps...do not put the sock filter in the tank.
And...while"usually" a sock filter that is SLOWLY silting up....gives some warning....that process is nowhere near "always". You can ingest one tank full of really crappy fuel and plug that sock. Been there and done that.
It actually did it to both of my cars at once...filling up at the same station...the night before the first day I started a new job!  ...came out in the morning and neither car would start. I had to cab to work.
When I drained the tank...it was a bunch of brownish varnish sludge..turned out to be improperly mixed additive package from the tank farm. That station crapped about 100 vehicles so the owner told me. The sock filters were literally glued closed.....so it can happen.
Here are some affordable examples of external strainer.
About $6 each at almost any FLAPS
Another common one used on many Ford Diesels...about $7
You can by the Hengst inline filters either single or by the bag for about $2 or less.
Ray |
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jtauxe
Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2004
Posts: 5780
Location: Los Alamos, New Mexico
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel tank outlet seal |
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We get that, Ray, but I think that SGK's point was that with the sock, the hole itself does not get blocked by a piece of something in the tank. With the screen outside the tank, it can still get blocked. Not by silt but by something larger. Like a flake of paint or rubber.
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John
"Travelling in a fried-out Kombi, on a hippie trail, head full of zombie..." - Colin Hay and Ron Strykert
http://vw.tauxe.net
1969 Transporter, 1971 Westfalia, 1976, 1977, 1976, 1977, 1971, 1973, 1977 Westfalias,
1979 Champagne Sunroof, 1974 Westfalia Automatic, 1979 Transporter, 1972 Sportsmobile, 1973 Transporter Wild Westerner, 1974 Westfalia parts bus, 1975 Mexican single cab *FOR SALE*, 1978 Irish 4-door double cab RHD
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16849
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel tank outlet seal |
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I have put them on in this order:
screen> tube>fiber washer>tube nut
the aluminum ring in the screen is the main seal. in fact, I have run them without the fiber washers and have never had a leak. the squeeze on the aluminum crush ring is what does all of the sealing
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51112
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel tank outlet seal |
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Although I too use the aluminum strainer collar as a seal (bottom of #5) it seems the parts fiche shows a washer of some kind between it and the tank (#6), may be aluminum, may be fiber. I'll bet the one between the nipple's flange and the nut (#8 ) is steel though, makes for good slip as you torque and there's no need for a seal there.
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel tank outlet seal |
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| jtauxe wrote: |
| We get that, Ray, but I think that SGK's point was that with the sock, the hole itself does not get blocked by a piece of something in the tank. With the screen outside the tank, it can still get blocked. Not by silt but by something larger. Like a flake of paint or rubber. |
Hey...just saying.....that logic does not make sense. Think about it.
If you have flakes in the tank of any size....the sock filter is not going to save you from stoppage. And when it does stop from having the sock filter plugged up.....just shaking the vehicle around is usually not enough to fully unstop it.....because it laying in a pool of silt.
Meanwhile....with the sock filter effectively on the OUTSIDE.....any fine silt ends up outside in a filter you can quickly and easily change without draining the tank.......so you do not get a long term fine silt buildup.....inside the tank....in the first place.
And if you do get the occasional big flake.....just shake the bus around and it moves away from the port.....while a silted up sock filter which will be sitting in a puddle of fine silt.....not so easy to clear.
I cannot tell you for how many people other the years with buses, type 4s and type 3s with sock filters...I have had to either remove the clogged sock filter after draining the tank....or had to advise them on the side of the road with their now empty tank....to jam a screwdriver or wire through the inlet to rip a fuel access hole in their deceased sock filter just to get back on the road....because they did not have new seals on hand to take it all out.
Unless you are making a concors vehicle....or a museum queen.....if you drive a lot of long distances where you can end up on the side of the road when it craps......there is no useful reason not to get the strainer out of the tank and put where you can instantly service it.
Imagine how much longer your expensive electric fuel pump might last....if you can end that long term slow choking off of the sock filter....by simply spending 1 minite and $1.80.....and slapping in a clean Hengst strainer at every oil change.
Go through the zillion threads....and see how often you have seen the ...."drives fine with some surging for a few miles and then dies"..."starts back up a few minutes later....then repeats"......or "funny grinding buzzy noise from pump and intermittent miss and stalling".......and the hundreds of people who in the endless pages of diagnosis....who suggest...."well....check the sock filter"....and damn!....it,works!
And.....yet we are all still suggesting that its excellent practice to put something that can stop you dead and burn up your $200 pump.....in a place were its sight unseen and totally unservicable...without preparation?.........when you can make it dirt simple for less than $2 and a pair of hose clamps?
To me this falls in the same category of beetle and through 71 bug guys with type 1 engines putting the fuel filter in the engine compartment....exactly where the factory put it......and everyone reems their ass for that (and I agree)......and yet you wont do just as logical of a move and get the sock filter out or the tank......because the factory put it there?
Excuse me while I snort in disbelief...... 
Ray |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51112
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel tank outlet seal |
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Well VW deleted the screen around the time they were prepping for FI (mid 73), the screen is only used in early carb equipped vehicles. When they were new that screen and the one in the fuel pump were the only filters they left the factory with, no inline stuff anywhere.
I have been known to puncture the screen before installing it, that way no amount of fine sludge can block it, yet any large debris will still be kept away from the tip of the outlet pipe, of course I use an inline filter under the tank above the transmission in all situations.
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Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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wcfvw69
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel tank outlet seal |
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IDK Ray, I'm usually aligned with your thinking. However, I think the sock is prudent in the tank as a first line of defense. Then an inline, fine fuel filter between the tank and the fuel pump that's not in the engine compartment.
Here's my rational- If dirt and debris land on the side of the sock in the tank, it won't plug the outlet unless the tanks almost empty. You still have 3/4" of the sock that is clear and will allow the fuel through to exit the tank.
I don't know. Clearly the engineers who are smarter than I thought there was value to having them in the tank or VW would of saved the money and not installed them.
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50331
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:16 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel tank outlet seal |
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Not only can you trash the screen you can cut the pipe off short so that the tank can not hold much water thus reducing the chance of getting much rust. You can cut the pipe to a V shape to keep a floating piece of plastic from clogging it.
If you store your fuel for months at a time in Jerry cans that sit out in the rain you might not want to do this, but otherwise you will probably have fewer problems with the tank and actually increase your range a dozen miles or so. |
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jtauxe
Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2004
Posts: 5780
Location: Los Alamos, New Mexico
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:59 am Post subject: Re: Fuel tank outlet seal |
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I have thought about this from a fluid dynamics perspective, Ray. And the sock makes sense, not just because VW put it there.
The silt filter outside the tank ALSO makes sense. Each has a different role.
The sock should not block silt, it should just block flakes from blocking the hole. If there is a flake on one side of the sock, it does not block the flow, as was pointed out by wcfvw69.
If someone has enough junk in their tank to clog a sock, they have much bigger problems!
_________________
John
"Travelling in a fried-out Kombi, on a hippie trail, head full of zombie..." - Colin Hay and Ron Strykert
http://vw.tauxe.net
1969 Transporter, 1971 Westfalia, 1976, 1977, 1976, 1977, 1971, 1973, 1977 Westfalias,
1979 Champagne Sunroof, 1974 Westfalia Automatic, 1979 Transporter, 1972 Sportsmobile, 1973 Transporter Wild Westerner, 1974 Westfalia parts bus, 1975 Mexican single cab *FOR SALE*, 1978 Irish 4-door double cab RHD
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel tank outlet seal |
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| jtauxe wrote: |
I have thought about this from a fluid dynamics perspective, Ray. And the sock makes sense, not just because VW put it there.
The silt filter outside the tank ALSO makes sense. Each has a different role.
The sock should not block silt, it should just block flakes from blocking the hole. If there is a flake on one side of the sock, it does not block the flow, as was pointed out by wcfvw69.
If someone has enough junk in their tank to clog a sock, they have much bigger problems! |
You are correct on almost all counts....except that the sock DOES block silt and leave it in the tank. Its far too fine to be just a flake blocker.....and I think that is its biggest problem....that and a tually being in the tank.
If the bus fuel tank had a lid on top.....that you could actually easily access.....and if the sock could be pulled loose from from the tube through that hole....it would nott be such a big chore.
And....to tell you a bit more about where my point of view comes from.....as Busdaddy mentioned....the sock was removed before FI really started.......on the bus.....only.
On fuel iniected type 3 and 4 vehicles .....the damn sock filter was there all the way through production.....and it sucked.
Agree. You have flakes in the tank and are clogging the sock filter....you havd problems....but those problems short of leaks....need not leave you stranded looking for a 12 gallon bucket.....if you simply cut that POS sick filter off and put an external strainer in it....identical in function to the sick filter....but simple to change. Ray |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel tank outlet seal |
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| wcfvw69 wrote: |
IDK Ray, I'm usually aligned with your thinking. However, I think the sock is prudent in the tank as a first line of defense. Then an inline, fine fuel filter between the tank and the fuel pump that's not in the engine compartment.
Here's my rational- If dirt and debris land on the side of the sock in the tank, it won't plug the outlet unless the tanks almost empty. You still have 3/4" of the sock that is clear and will allow the fuel through to exit the tank.
I don't know. Clearly the engineers who are smarter than I thought there was value to having them in the tank or VW would of saved the money and not installed them. |
I think you are missing the fact that I am not against the sock filter....I am against it needless location in the tank. As I have noted....you can simply put the exact equivalent of the sock filter ON THE OUTSIDE...between the tank outlet and the normal fuel filter.
Same exact function....no BS in changing it out.
Look carefully at those products I posted in the links. None of them are filters.
They are all STRAINERS.
Also.....give this over to the vw engineers because they must be smart?????????
......yes....on many things....but nowhere near perfect.....and NEVER...EVER...EVER...place blind trust in ANY engineer.....just because they are engineers and therefore must know what they are doing.
I just spent an entire day in a clean room with 3 process engineers one ME and CHEM-E.....between them they could not work their way out of a paper bag with a sharpened slide rule. Sad.....I think their director is close to firing at least one of them.
In short....as I have stated at least 6 times in here.....a STRAINER ....is good engineering. Its a no brainer. You do not need an engineer to tell you that.
Putting it in a space that canno be serviced without draining the tank is ignorant.
Its also why strainer discs on modern submerged fuel injection pumps.....are
1. Not in contact with the bottom of the tank...and
2. Use carecully engineered filter mesh of an exact size and specific weave....for flow....and so they do not clog.
I just spent a day in late November with one of the largest filtration meah weaving companies in the world. There is a reason why the in tank filters in modern EFI....rarely clog like our ancient sock filters...even in 3rd world countries with grimy fuel tanks. Its because of specifically engineered filter meshes, and how they are installed.
The sock filters available for our tanks....are nothing like that.
Ray |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel tank outlet seal |
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Ray - it is Ok to have a different opinion. No one is keeping score. Lots of cars have socks. It lets the fuel outlet not get clogged in one fell swoop. VW also designed it so it was easy to replace. No need for special doors, access flaps, etc.. Yes, these are indeed 40 to 50 year old cars. If you want to take the sock off your VWs please do so but don't expect everyone to agree with you on this one. A good friend of mine used to judge the condition of the inside of his chevy tank by how well the sock in the tank was flowing. He said that if the engine started to starve when there were still 3 or 4 gallons in the tank then he knew it was time to drop the tank. Gas stations today have better filtration than they did 50 years ago but still sometimes dirt and things get into those tanks. Remind me to tell the story sometime of a fellow I know whose Cessna tank was almost 75% full of water due to a contaminated underground tank.
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