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Sharp64
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
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 Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch confusion |
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| Type 5 Joe wrote: |
A common problem I have seen is the metal clutch tube that runs through the tunnel has broken free of its welds.
You have to do a bit of surgery to fix it.
Check all other potential problems, then look into this. |
Very solid car and to be honest, looking at some things I think it’s actually pretty low mileage considering a previous accident and a couple of paint jobs. I would be surprised if any welds have broken loose due to use. I just replaced the clutch cable a bit over a year ago and didn’t notice the tube being loose.
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1960 Indigo Blue Ragtop (Blue Barry)
1967 Ghia
1985 Westy Money Pit
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.” - Michael Caine |
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Sharp64
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch confusion |
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| maui wrote: |
| What freebug said because happen to me and I greased my glandnut bearing and problem went away wen I press in the clutch. |
I put a fair amount of grease into the gland prior to putting back in the car. Brand new gland nut.
_________________
1960 Indigo Blue Ragtop (Blue Barry)
1967 Ghia
1985 Westy Money Pit
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.” - Michael Caine |
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Type 5 Joe
Banned
Joined: January 18, 2003
Posts: 1795
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch confusion |
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The problem is that VW didn't weld them in as good as the could have at the factory... They can be partially broken free.
I have seen an internal clutch tube with broken welds on some very nice cars... Typically the pedal will feel spongy under your foot... Sometimes you can hear a creek.
When they completely break free, you'll have little clutch movement with the cable adjusted alot like you describe.
Like I said, check everything else... Then take a look at this.
It is a difficult repair for a novice.
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Sharp64
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch confusion |
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Just seems too coincidental that it was fine, literally a couple of days ago, I change the motor and it’s not. If it’s loose, where would the welds be to see if its loose?
_________________
1960 Indigo Blue Ragtop (Blue Barry)
1967 Ghia
1985 Westy Money Pit
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.” - Michael Caine |
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Type 5 Joe
Banned
Joined: January 18, 2003
Posts: 1795
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch confusion |
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If you eliminate all other source if the problem...
The best advice I can give you over the internet would be to cut open a scrap pan and see how its built.
Armed with this knowledge, I have been able to drill a hole in the right place and feed a hook around the tube and fasten it down.
Some have cut windows opposite the driver's side of the tunnel to do this.
There is probably a thread on here (has to be) of someone doing this repair.
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch confusion |
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| nipple towards trans??? |
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Sharp64
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch confusion |
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| mark tucker wrote: |
| nipple towards trans??? |
Yes.
_________________
1960 Indigo Blue Ragtop (Blue Barry)
1967 Ghia
1985 Westy Money Pit
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.” - Michael Caine |
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madmike
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:36 am Post subject: Re: Clutch confusion |
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Pull the shifter out look to see if the clutch cable tube moves when u press the pedal down 
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'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
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Dale M.
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Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20380
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:27 am Post subject: Re: Clutch confusion |
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One thing I noticed is you seem to think some of the suggestions are moot because you checked it a long time back or replaced something a year ago..... Just because it was good yesterday, does not mean its not broken today... Most thing break without warning signs or sending you a message, and you don't know if its broken or not unless you look at it....
I would start at clutch pedal and inspect everything from there all the way back to flywheel....Yes even clutch tube and cable...
And running it on stands is not same as on the road... Even a tire out of balance can sent you weird message you don't understand...
Dale
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“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
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Sharp64
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Clutch confusion |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
One thing I noticed is you seem to think some of the suggestions are moot because you checked it a long time back or replaced something a year ago..... Just because it was good yesterday, does not mean its not broken today... Most thing break without warning signs or sending you a message, and you don't know if its broken or not unless you look at it....
I would start at clutch pedal and inspect everything from there all the way back to flywheel....Yes even clutch tube and cable...
And running it on stands is not same as on the road... Even a tire out of balance can sent you weird message you don't understand...
Dale |
I didn't state that any suggestions were moot, simply saying that it would be very bizarre for a Bowden tube or clutch cable to be bad when I just replaced them within the last year or two and MAYBE have put 1000 miles on the car since then, but more than likely it is actually less than a few hundred. I've been under the car for the last week and inspected the Bowden tube and it appears fine and has the correct bend in it. cable moves freely when its loosened and I don't see a need to remove it. I don't hear clanking around inside the tunnel. I appreciate any suggestions, and I should have been more clear by explaining that while new, I have also looked at these items. Except cutting my tunnel open to look for loose welds.
Regardless, I found the issue after dropping the engine:
For whatever reason, the clips that keep the ring inside the pressure plate came loose and it separated from the pressure plate so I essentially had zero clutch...
Now the question is.. what would cause this to happen? Throw out bearing looks correct, clips are on right as far as I can tell. Is the pressure plate just old and worn or have I missed something? Is it just indicative of this type of pressure plate and do I run the risk of having to do this again? Was my install somehow to blame? Should I just get a new PP?
Thoughts?
_________________
1960 Indigo Blue Ragtop (Blue Barry)
1967 Ghia
1985 Westy Money Pit
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.” - Michael Caine |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20380
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:03 am Post subject: Re: Clutch confusion |
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Possibly during installation, the transmission input shaft contracted ring on clutch plate and caused spring to pop off?
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
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All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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Sharp64
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:19 am Post subject: Re: Clutch confusion |
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Hmm. Could be, but kind of concerns me. Also trying to figure out what the white crap is all over the bearing? Cant find where anything got shredded.
May just call the local VW place and see what other pressure plates they have in stock.
_________________
1960 Indigo Blue Ragtop (Blue Barry)
1967 Ghia
1985 Westy Money Pit
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.” - Michael Caine |
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Type 5 Joe
Banned
Joined: January 18, 2003
Posts: 1795
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:22 am Post subject: Re: Clutch confusion |
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Yes, that looks like the problem...
That style of clutch hasn't been offered new in a very long time... (correct me if I'm wrong).
Looks old.
I would go for a diaphragm style pressure plate... Maybe a bus one if you want a little extra pressure.
Hope that is all you need, and your back on the road.
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If you would like to contact me, just email through one of my ads on here...
I don't use the P.M. service on here. |
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FreeBug
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012
Posts: 4278
Location: deepest, darkest Switzerland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:26 am Post subject: Re: Clutch confusion |
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| Type 5 Joe wrote: |
If you eliminate all other source if the problem...
The best advice I can give you over the internet would be to cut open a scrap pan and see how its built.
Armed with this knowledge, I have been able to drill a hole in the right place and feed a hook around the tube and fasten it down.
Some have cut windows opposite the driver's side of the tunnel to do this.
There is probably a thread on here (has to be) of someone doing this repair. |
The Bentley tells you where to cut, I do it with with a hole-saw, easy to weld back in place. And just saying, the last one I did it was a low-mileage, pretty pristine car.It just happens. I know this wan't the cause, but it's worth mentioning for others who might have similar symptoms.
Having said that, have a real good look at what's going on with the clutch, it would be a shame to put in a new pressure plate and have it do the same thing... |
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Type 5 Joe
Banned
Joined: January 18, 2003
Posts: 1795
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:46 am Post subject: Re: Clutch confusion |
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Yes, its a bummer to tell people about the worst of the worst scenarios...
But after playing with these things for almost 40 years, you see alot of stuff.
I had a customer bring me a really nice, pan off restoration Baja bug... Beautiful interior (street)... Roll cage... Everything powder coated, etc... Blah, Blah, Blah.
This was a $15,000.00 car as a roller with no engine.
His fuel line needed replacement.
I think it would be foolish to do any pan-off restoration without welding the clutch tube and replacing the fuel line when its apart.
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Sharp64
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:48 am Post subject: Re: Clutch confusion |
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| Type 5 Joe wrote: |
Yes, that looks like the problem...
That style of clutch hasn't been offered new in a very long time... (correct me if I'm wrong).
Looks old.
I would go for a diaphragm style pressure plate... Maybe a bus one if you want a little extra pressure.
Hope that is all you need, and your back on the road. |
Yep they’re old. Looked at the number on the PP and it was a 21* so it’s actuallj a bus one. Decided to put it back in as the only thing locally was a chinese 1700 knock off or “stock” which who knows where it was made. If it fails again I’ll pull the motor and replace it.
_________________
1960 Indigo Blue Ragtop (Blue Barry)
1967 Ghia
1985 Westy Money Pit
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.” - Michael Caine |
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Type 5 Joe
Banned
Joined: January 18, 2003
Posts: 1795
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:49 am Post subject: Re: Clutch confusion |
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If you don't "need" to drive it... I would order a quality OEM pressure plate.
Every year it seems to get harder to get good parts... We recently had a parts shop close that I did business with for many years...
The worst part was there were a couple people there that knew me, for decades, and they could be trusted not to send me crap. They also knew what crap was and could identify it.
The struggle is real.
...........................................................................................................
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Sharp64
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch confusion |
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The pressure plate I have is OEM I believe.
_________________
1960 Indigo Blue Ragtop (Blue Barry)
1967 Ghia
1985 Westy Money Pit
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.” - Michael Caine |
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Type 5 Joe
Banned
Joined: January 18, 2003
Posts: 1795
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch confusion |
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It is...
But there is a reason they quit making them.
You are holding 1/2 of that reason in your hand.
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Splitdog
Samba Split Personality
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 4125
Location: Planet VW
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Clutch confusion |
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Just order a Kennedy stage I and never look back. With a Daiken disc.
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