Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Reupholstering 412 seats - how to remove seat back upholstery?
Page: 1, 2  Next
Forum Index -> 411/412 Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Stlywo
Samba Member


Joined: January 13, 2019
Posts: 10

Stlywo is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:18 am    Post subject: Reupholstering 412 seats - how to remove seat back upholstery? Reply with quote

Hello,

I am trying to reupholster my front seats in a VW Type 4 and was wondering if you all could give me some tips on how to get the upholstery off of the seat back. I got the seat back pocket and board off, but I am not sure how to disassemble the seat to get the upholstery off. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
I tried seeing if I could remove the lip that goes around the edge of the seat on the back, and didn’t have any luck.


Thanks,
Stacey
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 15573
Location: Oklahoma City
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Reupholstering 412 seats - how to remove seat back upholstery? Reply with quote

Give me until tomorrow. There was a complete thread someone posted lasted year. I have to dig out the link from my list.
Also I can post the exploded view of the parts. Complicated seats.

Do you own this type 4 or are you an upholstery shop?

If you are a shop....make patterns. The rest of us could bring you business.

At this point.....NONE of the common VW upholstery shops has ever done a 411/412 seat. Sew fine and TMI....all list about $300 charge for pattern making before upholstery . Ray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Stlywo
Samba Member


Joined: January 13, 2019
Posts: 10

Stlywo is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Reupholstering 412 seats - how to remove seat back upholstery? Reply with quote

Thank you so much!

We found this thread (which is amazing!) but didn’t see instructions about how to actually remove the upholersty: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=621762

And yes, we are the owners of the 412 (based in the Washington DC area) not a shop!

Here is what we are looking at right now:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 15573
Location: Oklahoma City
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:59 am    Post subject: Re: Reupholstering 412 seats - how to remove seat back upholstery? Reply with quote

I know this does not help much....but hopefully they will help someone. As I noted...there are a LOT of parts in these seats. I realized after looking at the part # sheets...but here it is anyway.

I did not have a chance to look at my seats in my storage unit. I am back on Sunday of this week and will check...but if memory serves the seat back cover has splines in the piping or edge. I "think" there are bent over hooks or sharp teeth like you find around the bottom metal tubing of the seat base. I think you have to bend the teeth slightly up...and pull the cover forward to get the teeth back through the holes and the spline over the teeth.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Ray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Stlywo
Samba Member


Joined: January 13, 2019
Posts: 10

Stlywo is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Reupholstering 412 seats - how to remove seat back upholstery? Reply with quote

Thanks! And yikes! A lot of parts indeed! That’s amazing that you have those diagrams! What book are they from? I have a copy of the shop manual but that doesn’t appear to be in there!

I haven’t been able to make much progress. I can’t even figure out how to get the head rest detached! The only upholstery hooks that I can find are on the bottom part of the backing... circled in yellow on the below photo....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


My main issue that I’m trying to address is that the padding has started to wear out and the metal frame is now directly touching the upholstery, which is terribly uncomfortable. You can see where the frame is showing through in the below picture, also circled in yellow. Lucky it hasn’t poked through yet.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I’m now wondering if it’s better to just try to stuff in some extra padding from the back, rather than to take it all apart. I worry about my ability to get it all back together! Hmm...

Thanks again for your input on this!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 15573
Location: Oklahoma City
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Reupholstering 412 seats - how to remove seat back upholstery? Reply with quote

Stlywo wrote:
Thanks! And yikes! A lot of parts indeed! That’s amazing that you have those diagrams! What book are they from? I have a copy of the shop manual but that doesn’t appear to be in there!

I haven’t been able to make much progress. I can’t even figure out how to get the head rest detached! The only upholstery hooks that I can find are on the bottom part of the backing... circled in yellow on the below photo....

My main issue that I’m trying to address is that the padding has started to wear out and the metal frame is now directly touching the upholstery, which is terribly uncomfortable. You can see where the frame is showing through in the below picture, also circled in yellow. Lucky it hasn’t poked through yet.

Ok.....if you can give me until about Tuesday. I am out of town working right now. When I get back I will drop by my storage unit. I have two complete sear frames. One with cover on and one off. I can photograph the attachment points.

The images are from the 411/412 dealer parts manual. I have a low resolution copy done in j-pegs that was gifted to me about 12 years ago. Each page is about 4 mega pixels.

I have been in the process over time of opening each page in my camdra software, bringing up the contrast and cleaning it up. A minute or two per page.

When its done....maybe a month or so.....I will give it to EveretteB to post for download on the site.
This parts book covers all 411 and early 412 but not the 1974 with 1.8L and L-jet.

I would like to make this available two ways.
1. In small size which are full page size photos but done with snipping tool ...so dach page is about 100kb each page. Though they are a,full size page image you cannot blow them up any larger.

2. Images full resolution.....but the fill is close to a gigabyte.....so it may just,stay in my,dropbox for you to download.
Ray


I’m now wondering if it’s better to just try to stuff in some extra padding from the back, rather than to take it all apart. I worry about my ability to get it all back together! Hmm...

Thanks again for your input on this!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Stlywo
Samba Member


Joined: January 13, 2019
Posts: 10

Stlywo is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:39 am    Post subject: Re: Reupholstering 412 seats - how to remove seat back upholstery? Reply with quote

Thank you so much!

I’ll hold tight until you can get to your storage unit! No rush at all. I really appreciate all your help on this.

Super exciting to also learn about the digitization of the manual and upcoming possibility to download it!

Very Happy

Stacey
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
pbnjimages
Samba Member


Joined: March 14, 2015
Posts: 112
Location: Whittier CA
pbnjimages is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Reupholstering 412 seats - how to remove seat back upholstery? Reply with quote

you've got the back panel off, so you're doing great. At the top of the back opening, the material is sewn to a "J" channel. The two sides are sewn to very hefty plastic pieces which slide in. Soapy water or a shot of WD would have been helpful, but my wife and I just pulled-pushed the sides up the slots. Get both sides moved up a couple inches, and youll be able to then work the top edge out of its groove. It just lips in to its slot, feel up there and youll see. After the top edge is free, its just a matter of inching the sides up and out of their grooves.

The side pieces that slide in the tracks we saved, and reused. The top track was too shot during removal to be any good. A local upholstery shop had a few different types of channel, I picked one that was close, and then when assembling, used some heat to give it the final profile.

Try to be gentler then I was when taking apart the old, you never know what youll need to reuse.

Ill look through my photos, and see if I have any shots of the channel or process.
_________________
1974 412 variant
1965 notchback S
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 15573
Location: Oklahoma City
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Reupholstering 412 seats - how to remove seat back upholstery? Reply with quote

pbnjimages wrote:
you've got the back panel off, so you're doing great. At the top of the back opening, the material is sewn to a "J" channel. The two sides are sewn to very hefty plastic pieces which slide in. Soapy water or a shot of WD would have been helpful, but my wife and I just pulled-pushed the sides up the slots. Get both sides moved up a couple inches, and youll be able to then work the top edge out of its groove. It just lips in to its slot, feel up there and youll see. After the top edge is free, its just a matter of inching the sides up and out of their grooves.

The side pieces that slide in the tracks we saved, and reused. The top track was too shot during removal to be any good. A local upholstery shop had a few different types of channel, I picked one that was close, and then when assembling, used some heat to give it the final profile.

Try to be gentler then I was when taking apart the old, you never know what youll need to reuse.

Ill look through my photos, and see if I have any shots of the channel or process.


Pbnjimages...thank you! You beat me to it!

I have only a couple of images from one of my bare frames. Let me try to piece together what Pbnjimages is telling you.

Ok some details
Looking at your picture…notice these nice round bulges the red arrows point to? I call them “bull noses”. They are formed by plastic/nylon moldings on the inside that the seat cover is actually stitched to.

The reason you do not see them on the parts book sheet…is because they do not have a separate part number. They come already sewn to the seat cover fabric. I have found many are actually stapled.

It’s obvious that the top flap from the headrest down in the center comes apart first…it’s lapped over the sides….but how it’s hooked is kind of similar. There is as Pbnjimages noted…a kind of metal or plastic “J” shaped rib sewn to the flap edge….pulled taut and hooked.

So your picture…see these round bulges...the "bull noses"?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


They are sewn in here
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


What they look like in cross section is “kind of” like this…its been 15 years since I held one in my hand.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


What they plug onto…
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


To install the side of a seat cover to the frame....(going off of long lost memory)…you grasp the side of the seat cover …where it is stitched to the plastic bull nose underneath…pull rearward….and roll it about 45°. The steel tabs on the seat stick into the slot….and you push inward while rolling to snap over the inner edge of the seat frame.

The steel side tabs on the seat frame really just keep the plastic core from slipping up and down vertically on the seat frame edge. The cross section of the plastic core is kind of a “G”. So as you roll it…it tensions the fabric of the side bolster and snaps onto the seat frame tight.
It sounds brutal but just grasp the bull nose section…pull rearward and outward at the same time.....and yes…you may need some prying tools. I suggest looking at some of the plastic prybars used for stereo face plate work (about $5 a set at Harbor Freight).

I have two seats with covers on them. One I will not pull apart because its good enough for a cover pattern. The other is shot and if need be I will pull apart and photograph.
Ray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
pbnjimages
Samba Member


Joined: March 14, 2015
Posts: 112
Location: Whittier CA
pbnjimages is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Reupholstering 412 seats - how to remove seat back upholstery? Reply with quote

Thanks Ray, the schematics and your description do clarify what I was saying.

Stlywo, if you go back to my thread on reupholstering the seats, you'll see a couple of images of both the top "J" channel, and a shot of the side tracks that Ray referred to as bullnoses.

But to reiterate, Sliding the sides up a couple inches before working loose the top J channel will make it much easier. Just my experience.

Glad my thread was of help to someone. Feel free to IM with any detail questions you might have.

BTW, I wasnt planning on redoing to headrests, but after doing the seats, the headrests just didn't look fresh enough. Turns out they were a piece of cake. Work the bottom seam out at the corners, itll expose the zipper that holds them on. replicate the pattern, sew in the zipper, and pull on. A little heat from a hair dryer will allow you to stretch them in shape.

The bagginess in the pictures on my thread smoothed out after a couple days in the sun.

Good Luck!
_________________
1974 412 variant
1965 notchback S
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Stlywo
Samba Member


Joined: January 13, 2019
Posts: 10

Stlywo is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Reupholstering 412 seats - how to remove seat back upholstery? Reply with quote

All super helpful, thank you so much.

I’m a little confused as to what I need to do but I’ll be in touch soon after I’ve had a chance to sit with this some more. I may also need to recruit a second set of hands.

Couple quick questions at this juncture...

I don’t actually need to re-stuff the headrest, it is actually in pretty good shape- thanksfully! My problem is that I can’t physically pull it out of the seat! Is there some trick? And then also, I can’t get the dial off- the one on the side to adjust the seat! I’m assuming I just need to pull pull pull- is that correct?! Or is there some hidden latch/screw?!

Thanks again for all your help,

Stacey!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
pbnjimages
Samba Member


Joined: March 14, 2015
Posts: 112
Location: Whittier CA
pbnjimages is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Reupholstering 412 seats - how to remove seat back upholstery? Reply with quote

On the readreast, theres a button on each side, about where the zipper holds the cover on. They face the inside. Push these both in, pull up.

If you knob on the side you are referring to is the one towards the top that lets the seat fold forward, this just muscles off.
If you are referring to the recline angle adjuster, my seats did not have that.
_________________
1974 412 variant
1965 notchback S
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
pbnjimages
Samba Member


Joined: March 14, 2015
Posts: 112
Location: Whittier CA
pbnjimages is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Reupholstering 412 seats - how to remove seat back upholstery? Reply with quote

The sewing machine I used was a portable Consew. Strong machine, and it was cheap. If I had done more homework, I would have bought a Sailrite, virtually the exact machine, but with way better documentation.

Heres a terrible picture with my thumbs on the release buttons

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
1974 412 variant
1965 notchback S
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Stlywo
Samba Member


Joined: January 13, 2019
Posts: 10

Stlywo is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Reupholstering 412 seats - how to remove seat back upholstery? Reply with quote

Bingo! The headrest pulled right off, I was never going to get that in a million years! Thanks, one step closer!

And the knob is towards the base of the seat, you can see it in the photograph I posted (in the lower left corner!). I’ll keep pulling on it!

Best,

Stacey
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
pbnjimages
Samba Member


Joined: March 14, 2015
Posts: 112
Location: Whittier CA
pbnjimages is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Reupholstering 412 seats - how to remove seat back upholstery? Reply with quote

Okay the recliner knob. that rotates the chain, i am pretty sure that has a set screw or dowel. Like I said, my seats did not have the recline adjuster, but I have played with them on seats from a K40.

Before you get crazy pulling on that knob, check around the base.

Ray will be able to give the answer on this
_________________
1974 412 variant
1965 notchback S
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 15573
Location: Oklahoma City
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Reupholstering 412 seats - how to remove seat back upholstery? Reply with quote

Yes there is a small set screw in the knob.

Also I found a few pieces I saved from dissecting one of these seats.

I have some close ups of the "bullnose" piece and the J-hook piece that Pbnjimages described. i will post in the am.

I will say one thing...you guys are brave working on these seats. They are nothing like any other VW seat ACVW. They are similar in many ways to some of the Dasher and quantum seats. Complex.

I have kept my seat frames. I have two sets. I have a good enough cover on one to make a pattern.

All of that being said and skill involved...and even though these are just about the most comfortable seats in any ACVW...I have been looking hard at putting Procar 90 seats....very close.....on the original seat slides and slaving on the original headrests.

The more you guys work the closer I get to probably restoring my own seats. Ray Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
pbnjimages
Samba Member


Joined: March 14, 2015
Posts: 112
Location: Whittier CA
pbnjimages is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Reupholstering 412 seats - how to remove seat back upholstery? Reply with quote

Ray, if you have an extra recline knob and chain, of love to concert my drivers seat.
_________________
1974 412 variant
1965 notchback S
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 15573
Location: Oklahoma City
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Reupholstering 412 seats - how to remove seat back upholstery? Reply with quote

pbnjimages wrote:
Ray, if you have an extra recline knob and chain, of love to concert my drivers seat.


Crying or Very sad ....I may have it. I have the knob. I have one of the other parta. I may havd gotten rid of the chain and a few other parts for the seats because tbey werein rough shape in a bin for q long time. I was moving in September. I had to make some decisiona.

Let me look at the book and see wjat a kit of parts requires. Rqy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Stlywo
Samba Member


Joined: January 13, 2019
Posts: 10

Stlywo is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Reupholstering 412 seats - how to remove seat back upholstery? Reply with quote

Hmm... I can’t seem to find a screw anywhere. All I see in this little pin hole, can see right through it to the other side. What a puzzle. Any further hints?! I see the screw in the diagram but can’t actually see anything!


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
pbnjimages
Samba Member


Joined: March 14, 2015
Posts: 112
Location: Whittier CA
pbnjimages is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Reupholstering 412 seats - how to remove seat back upholstery? Reply with quote

are we looking at a hollow dowel pin maybe?

example below

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
1974 412 variant
1965 notchback S
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> 411/412 All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2018, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB