1978/1979 Westfalia or 1986-1991 Vanagon

[RVAGreen]

Help! Looking for guidance on my first bus purchase, total noob here.
Live in Virginia, have 2 littles, and would anticipate driving up the east coast (I-95, think: hot, sticky, traffic and through east coast mountains (Va/Blue Ridge, WV, Maine, VT)

I thought I had my heart set on 1978/1979 Westfalia, for that era my understanding: pros being better engine, 2 full beds, looks amazing! concerns: can I really safely travel with 2 littles, through east coast traffic in the summer time, up to Maine over the Mountains to Vermont? Would a manual or automatic be preferred and why?

I've just started to reconsider 1986-1991 Vanagon campers. I don't love the look nearly as much and I understand they aren't much better with respect to horse power, debatable if they are more reliable as the water cooled engines have an additional system to maintain, but do provide greater comfort (AC/heat)? Also, I believe they have seat belts to accommodate child seats?

So which would you recommend and why?
Thanks so much for your help!

[SGKent]

either are going to take a lot more work than renting something, or a SUV and small tent trailer. Anything VW that old is going to have some miles and wear on it. You will be the mechanic. Not trying to dissuade you but a good friend of mine bought a new Vanagon in the late 1980's early 1990's and he spent the first three vacations in a motel while VW replaced 3 engines. The AFM was bad and had too lean a mixture. Took VW a while to figure that out. Back then they had dealer support - today you are it. You can get a nice MDX, Lexus or Subaru that pulls a trailer with ease - and you have the car with all the comforts. I own a 1977 bus and love to take it camping. Had a 1971 before it but I am the mechanic, and keep a parts stash around for emergencies.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[ivwshane]

Hell, you can get a used porsche cayenne and a pop up trailer for probably cheaper than it would be to get a bus and get it up to snuff for your needs.

They are a lot of work and if you don't have the skills you will need the time to learn and to do the necessary maintenance.

I couldn't imagine having my bus and kids, even though it's an awesome vehicle for family camping.

Unless you are willing to spend the money for a restored one, I don't think for your situation it would make sense:(
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77 westy 2.0 FI
69 ghia coup 1600dp
70 single cab

[Wasted youth]

I do not have any experience with the Westfalia campers from the 1970's, but a fair amount of experience with buses from that era. The asthetics and reception from passerby is always more pleasant with the older vW buses than the Vanagons, but I find the Vanagon much more comfortable.

We love our 1987 automatic transmission Westfalia, but ANY of these choices discussed will be underpowered by today's automotive standards. Air conditioning has been an option since the mid-1970's

[Gregg in the 603]

The bus is great, and like SG said, you are your own mechanic. As long as you are capable of that, a well sorted late Bay window bus is awesome! I take mine with my 2 littles through the mountains of NH and ME all the time. It took me 5 years and lots of help to get it to the condition it's in now, but there's just no replacement when camping! Sure it's not as fast as a V8 Econoline, but I am quite capable of climbing the passes at a decent pace, fully loaded running my automatic transmission, which is awesome BTW.
As far as the Vanagon goes, yes they have similar capabilities with only slightly better modern accoutrements (A/C; a bus is quite capable of generating heat and some rare busses have A/C). But Vanagons have the personality of a dead fish. A bus destroys the Vanagon in that department. I give the Vanagon a slight edge in the upgrade department only. Swapping in a modern Subaru powerplant is difficult but possible in a bus, but in a Vanagon it is a little easier since the existing water cooling components are already present. If you want 4WD, the Vanagon wins that too, but at a significant price premium. Of course, 4WD is significantly overrated and unnecessary in all but the most extreme off-road scenarios. Ground clearance (which the bus has in spades) and tires will get you to 99% of the spots you desire.
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1979 Mexico Beige Westy auto
Dirty Dover, NH

[my59]

Driving 95 from VA up past Boston simply sucks, and it is worse in a Bus if you are not 150% confidant that it is in tip top shape and some outrageous color combo. I've had people try to merge into the side of the sassy grass green and white combo more than once, and be completely surprised after riding the horn that there was a vehicle in their chosen spot.
That said, map out the two lanes, make frequent stops at locations of your choice, carry a selection on non Flaps available parts, and have at it.
If the kids are too young, they may not remember it, and you might as well rent a good sized SUV for the trip. Rented cars have perks like AC and all the mod cons....that make 95 kinda bearable.
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my59: Well son, my grandfather died before I got to drive it, so does that answer your question?
our79: sunroof bus w/camper interior and 2.0 FI
Other:'12 Jetta, '77 Benz 300D, and a 74 MG Midget.

[busdaddy]

I guess the first thing you have to do is list your must haves, like to haves , can live withouts and oh hell no's as far as performance, functionality, and expectations go. How light is your SO willing to travel?, what is your and their definition of "roughing it"?, do either of you have deadlines?, just how little are these kids?, any more planned?, is the choice of a bus more for looks than careful consideration of your needs?, and of course the big one...... what's your budget for this venture like?
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[Wildthings]

Our primary travel vehicle when my kids were at home was my '74 transporter with an 1800cc engine. I drove the piss out of it on the east coast Interstates and crossed the country a half dozen or so times running mostly back roads. Everything is 30 years older now, but I really think parts availability is better in many ways because of the internet. Find a parts supplier that will ship parts the day of the order and get them to you the next day for when you travel. When at home in Oregon I use many different suppliers looking for the best possible parts, but when on the road if and when I do need something I call Halsey Import Parts as they get me going again the quickest.

[RalphWiggam]

Here's a little bit different perspective for you...

My dad bought his 72 camper in 1983. I was 4 and my brother was 8. I think it took him a few years to get it like he wanted. After that, we travelled everywhere in it. He put about 200k miles on it taking us everywhere. A lot of my best memories are from camping with him in the bus. All over the east coast and midwest. I really only remember it breaking down maybe twice in all that time. He was very smart and very mechanically inclined. Watching and helping him when I was a kid is how I learned to use my hands and tools. I now have an audi, porsche, vw, and a volvo and do all the work on all of them myself.

He passed away a little over a year ago and I have just recently finished getting his bus back in safe reliable condition. I love driving it and both my kids LOVE riding in it. They always pick "the bus" when I ask them what car they want to take.

[honestcharlie56]

what age are the kiddo's? Mine are 2 and 4 (about to be 3 and 5)....and I have to beat them with whatever is lying around to get them out of my bus. They just love everything about it, they love it to the point that I find foot prints in my cabinets and on the ceiling. If they are super little, just be careful and make sure their safety equipment is up to par and installed correctly.
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1982 Vanagon Westy
1974 Transporter
1971 Tin Top Westy

[SamboSamba22]

Vanagon - Safety and creature comforts, more modern fuel injection and diagnosis.
Bay- Ten years older, a little less safe (crash zones, seat belts) but the nostalgia will ease your mind when people are throwing the thumbs up and getting the kiddos involved with happiness and friendliness.

So really, practicality over show. I argue with my girl all the time to just throw on some tennies, leave the heels at the house. You think she listens?
8 hours at a VW show and you know what? She sure did look damn good in those heels, so really show isn't bad when its built to last (yes, that's a Dead reference).

You can always add supports and safety belts to accommodate the little ones, though as mentioned if they are really little, I believe you will find more peace of mind in the later waterboxers.

Regardless be a prickler about all your fluids, brakes, and fuel lines. Attentiveness and you'll drive easy.

You're welcome for the hypocrisy and added confusion
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The Bus Barn Ltd. Co.

Oct. ’67 Double Cab (’68 Crew Cab)
[url=http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-44412.png]Click to view image[/URL]
March '69 Delivery (Panel Bus)
[url=http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-44414.png]Click to view image[/URL]

[seventyfo]

About 7 years ago I was in somewhat the same position. I had a 78 deluxe Westfalia with about 100k miles that drove like new, almost zero rust, complete and minty, and I had about 3k in it. My plans were for long road trips (5-6 weeks) mostly out west. After many trips in the state I became aware of some things. First, with four people and all of our stuff, even for a weekend trip the bus was crammed. And noticeably underpowered on hills. A roof box would have solved the crammed problem perhaps but not the weight. The other issue was the lack of AC. For me personally, driving long distances with the windows down is much more tiring. Not to mention hot and sweaty, especially here in FL. I did a retrofit of the Gilmore kit in a friends 78 bus and it worked great so that was a consideration. However after working on and driving a friends 85 Westfalia I realized that for what my plans were the Vanagon was a better choice. Still a rear engine VW camper, much more room inside, upgraded heat and AC. Still third and sometimes second gear on hills, even with an upgraded (2.2 Gowesty) engine, but noticeably more stable on the highways. I miss my 78 still to this day but I don’t regret going with the Vanagon at all. And the Vanagon still gets plenty of smiles waves and thumbs up👍
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85 Vanagon GL Westy GW 2.2 (Rebuilt by YT)


"I don't know you well enough to care about your comments". Watkins Cravey

[dstimm]

I have a 79 westy with a young child and I have thought long and hard about this. I just prefer the looks and simplicity of the bus, and it feels very approachable to repair. However I have a good friend that bought a 91 Vanagon the same day I got mine, and I can see many pros and cons.

1. If my bus and his Vanagon are together, everyone is talking about the bus, it just attracts a lot more attention.
2. His Vanagon has AC, yet it is broken, but I would imagine having that during the hot summer months would be very nice. I have had some sweaty days with my bus, and you might need a portable fan and a spray bottle to mist your kids every once in a while.
3. I feel safety is pretty similar since both lack airbags, and for the kids, they are in the back which I feel is about the same in terms of safety. Maybe people will pay more attention to the bus and see you coming?
4. Power. His van has more power, but he also has more weight. I feel both are slow, but a good FI 2.0L 78/79 is pretty nice. However in hot days he will win because he has better cooling.
5. He feels more comfortable with modifications. Want to add a roof rack? sure drill some holes.. I on the other hand I don't want to do that to my 40 year old "vintage" bus. The Vanagon forums on the samba have way more DIY modification threads than the bay window side of the forums. There is also a lot more mods available commercially from GoWesty and others.


Either way, you will love both vehicles but you will spend a lot of time wrenching, tinkering, fixing problems, if you are not comfortable spending money and getting dirty you might want to get a more modern vehicle.
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1979 Sage Green California Westy.

[rsbadura]

I guess at the end it will be a question of price and time...
and you will choose a newer Vanagon or something else as a rental camper.

Both are vintage cars - and will take much money and time... if you could keep them running, you will have a lot of attention and fun.
But you should be prepared to fix smaller issues at your own.

All your requests were available also for the bay window.
But original options as A/C, backseat seatbelts, extra heat, automatic transmission, speed control etc are rare and could take much time to find.
Also more power is possible - by tuning or by using other engines as from Subaru - but all not for free.

The Vanagon is a good car - but less successful sold as the bay window - and the design is very sober and practical.

good luck & regards
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Rolf-Stephan Badura
1970 VW Karmann-Ghia Coupe
1979 VW Bus L to camper conversion
1982 Eriba Pan travel trailer
2017 VW CrossPolo
HAZET classic tools

[Ride_On]

Hi!

Fun conundrum...

What about testing the waters with a roadtrip in a rental - I see you're in Virginia, but Peace Vans in the PNW rents Vanagons, Bay Window buses and Eurovans. Perhaps you could do a 2 week trip splitting time between 2 vans? That outsources the mechanical side for starters too... I recall reading about a couple starting up a VW-based van rental near Wilmington in the Adirondacks too, but couldn't find them on a quick search.

For us, we have 2 boys, 6 and 4 and a 77 Westfalia. We've done annual 1-2,000 mile trips with them since our first was an infant. 5 years running with first 1 boy, then 2 both in car seats, now one in a car seat. Rather than rely on the old lap belts, I rigged up anchors under the bench that could interface with the LATCH connectors on the car seats. We're pretty full for our summer trip, but now that we have no jogging stroller or pack-n-play, we gained a bunch of space.

On super-hot days, we make more frequent stops at either rest stops or McD's for the AC.

Our bus was the original 2L fuel injected, air-cooled engine, with manual transmission. We traversed the 'Dacks, the White's, the steep hills of the Charlevoix in Quebec, and the mountains of the Gaspe. Impressive torque when all was well. We did break down a couple of times, but they became highlights of our trips. Get to know a good mechanic and have patience and faith in them (while learning the basics yourself). All told, we typically do 25+ nights out in our bus, plus my in-laws steal it for trips too.

We're very fortunate, our bus came to us within our family. It's the 4th that my in-laws have owned. They started with a bay window, then a 60's split, then a Vanagon, and returned to a bay window as they felt most connected to it.

A year ago, we had it converted to a Subaru engine and transmission. Pricey but amazing. No worries merging onto highways or keeping up with traffic flow. Plus our gas mileage was pretty low before and is now >20mpg (yes, some folks get that stock).

If possible, see if you can try before or while searching!
Good luck!
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1977 Westfalia 2.0 FI Skills EJ25 w SubaruGears 5sp
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=687254
2018 Golf Sportwagen 4MO DSG (Dieselgated 2013 Golf Wagon TDI DSG)

[danfromsyr]

for same/similiar money go with a Eurovan,

a bus is only best if you like talking with total strangers about the lifestyle and virtues of 'bus life' at gas stations, overlooks and the right lane on interstate hills while dump trucks barrel up behind you at blistering speeds.

and yes I own, a bay, a vanagon, an AWD astrovan and have had an Eurovan.


but unless you really really want to get into the VW HOBBY and become your own roadside mechanic. just rent an RV for your once in a while/year family memories.. a Bus only truly pays off over time.. many many uses over a long time.. it's not a good expenditure of time/$$ for the casual hobbyist.
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[420GOAT]

the vanagon is better, but can be more expensive and difficult to repair. but Vanagons are a better machine. 87 up has the better cooling system and more power.
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once you realize im not impressed we will get along just fine

[airkooledchris]

go with the Vanagon. You should get more for your money, plus with 4 people you will love the additional width of the camping beds at nighttime.

the other vanagon advantage is that if you ever wanted to update to a Subaru engine, it's much easier/cheaper to do so.

getting a late bay westy in top condition costs a lot and you still have to deal with the cost of the aircooled T4 engine, which can be painful if you don't already have experience with it.

[Manfreds78bay]

Given the choice if I had kids, go with the Van for of the modern comforts. Go with a Bus if you want to tinker. I've driven my 1978 all over and I love driving it. My longest trip being 3k miles. I've done Chicago to Tulsa in a day during August. If you don't know the mid-west St. Louis in rush hour is no place for an ill-tuned ACVW.

My wife on the other hand likes the romance of owning a bus but longer drives for her are an effort. It's very noisy and has a rougher ride than the Van. She loves our 2001 Volvo for road trips. It's quiet and more comfortable. I can't blame her.

Most of my restoration efforts go into trying to make it more comfortable for her so she will want take longer trips. There is a terrible whistle that drivers her crazy, I think I'm closing in on it.

As for as reliability, your bus is as good as you are. The only issue I've ever had on a trip in the bus is an empty gas tank because I still have not fixed my gas gauge...oh and I had an alternator go out on me once.

Closing image: if you aren't a mechanic or want to become one, you need both deep pockets and a kick ass mechanic that needs his retirement home paid for if you take either option.
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1978 2.0L FI Campmobile

1982 AMC Eagle SX4 4.2L FI

[Zelten]

As a die hard fan of Bay windows, I say if you can afford it, buy the Vanagon. I love my 78 Westy and I feel totally safe taking it anywhere. I've taking my bus with my 2 kids from Seattle to Bodega Bay California and out to Glacier NP in Montana and up Vancouver Island in British Columbia ( all separate trips). The only advantage, I think, a bay window has over the Vanagon is the aesthetic appeal. Vanagons have more room and have a bigger following right now than Bays and you will have an easier time with repairs and parts.
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1978 Delux Campmobile
03 Jetta TDI
15 Q7 TDI