Author |
Message |
thomast Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 228
|
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:24 pm Post subject: 2.1 or Subi...What to do, what to do??? |
|
|
Would love some feedback. Here's the deal....
Currently have a 1985 Westy with a stock 1.9. The engine runs ok, but two of the four cylinders are about 30% low on compression, so there is a definite lack of power. I have a fairly new transmission from GW in the van and overall the van is in really good shape with some good upgrades. The motor is the main concern right now for any longer trips.
I have two options I'm considering. Both would be done by my local very trusted mechanic.
Option 1 - Approx. $4500 - $5500: Good running 2.1 gone through, but not rebuilt aside from new seals and whatnot. It would get the fancy rocker and fuel injectors sold on thesamba along with the high perf mack daddy SS exhaust from RMW. This would also include any cooling reroutes and other misc items to go from a 1.9 to a 2.1.
Option 2: Approx. $11,000 - $13,000 - Subi 2.5 swap. Would include everything needed including the RMW exhaust.
I've driven my 1.9 from Florida to Minnesota and from Minnesota to Colorado and I honestly don't mind the lack of power of the 1.9 aside from a few times in NE driving straight into a headwind and only being able to go max 40mph for about 3 hours....ugh! But, overall, I know whatever power gains the 2.1 would give would be adequate for me and my driving style.
I'm looking for opinions from you all before I pull the trigger on one of the options. I'm leaning towards the 2.1 mostly from a cost perspective. If I had unlimited cash, i'd probably go with the Subi.
Thanks!
Thomas |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12103 Location: Port Manteau
|
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 or Subi...What to do, what to do??? |
|
|
What's the breakdown of the costs associated with whatever the mechanic is doing to the 2.1? Those prices seem kinda high for a non-rebuilt engine. Personally, I would skip the fancy rockers and exhaust, since you don't mind the current power output of the 1.9. Just focus on getting a solid running 2.1 to sit in there happily. You can always do upgrades later. If you have a complete donor engine, then the swap is very straight forward _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
SCM Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011 Posts: 3102 Location: Bozeman MT
|
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 or Subi...What to do, what to do??? |
|
|
Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
WThose prices seem kinda high for a non-rebuilt engine. |
Yeah. You can get a GoWesty 2.2L for $4,600 and I think my mechanic charged me about $1k to install my engine. Although I guess the RMW exhaust and other stuff could easily total to what the OP mentioned.
If you're already fine with the power and reliability of your 1.9L, I don't see the point in paying double to get the Suby installed. _________________ '91 Westfalia GL Automatic (GTA "Turbo" Rebuild w/Peloquin) and 2.3L GoWesty Engine |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bobbyblack Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015 Posts: 4333 Location: United States, Iowa
|
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 or Subi...What to do, what to do??? |
|
|
On the Transaxle side of the equation.. Standard, or Auto?
I sure would be more tempted at a transplanted ej25 on an Auto than a Standard.
But, for sure, good to ask and think about this a while.
The good reasons to stay more-or-less stock are a-plenty. Also, plenty of good reasons to Transplant.
Care to share some photos of your rig?
-bobby _________________ '87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
|
Back to top |
|
|
djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
thomast Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 228
|
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 or Subi...What to do, what to do??? |
|
|
The van is a manual. I understand I could do the swap myself and save, but I don't have a space to do it in and i'm ok with spending the extra money to have it done well.
A quick breakdown, which I think is reasonable for the 2.1 is:
Engine = $550
Additional Parts (exhaust, clutch, electrical, fuel, rocker) = $2200 +-
Labor = $1700 +-
The Subi swap price was a rough guess by the shop owner, but would include I believe the SmallCar conversion kit along with a wiring harness and a later model 2.5. Given what other well know shops charge, I feel that estimate isn't out of bounds. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bobbyblack Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015 Posts: 4333 Location: United States, Iowa
|
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 or Subi...What to do, what to do??? |
|
|
If I had the $'s I'd have gone with your approach. I am mid transplant, moving at a snails' pace. More than 13 months now. However, not everyone has 3 or 4 Vanagons... I'm keeping the Westy stock, while performing Frankensteins' experiments on others The blue/white one is 90% done getting EJ22 transplant. Would move more rapidly if I had a warm garage.. I obviously need a BIG(er) and warm(er) garage.
_________________ '87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Ahwahnee Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2010 Posts: 9776 Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
|
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 or Subi...What to do, what to do??? |
|
|
SCM wrote: |
...Yeah. You can get a GoWesty 2.2L for $4,600 and I think my mechanic charged me about $1k to install my engine... |
An advantage there is that they have a 2.2l that is a drop-in replacement for the 1.9l - no modifications required. It really is a noticeable bump in power.
We've put 50000+ miles on ours and couldn't be happier. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jmillsj Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2017 Posts: 110 Location: Denver, CO
|
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 or Subi...What to do, what to do??? |
|
|
I had Rocky Mountain Westy put a Subaru 2.5l in last Spring and I love it. I drove a 1.9l for the first 9 years I owned it, an inline 4 1.8l for the next 14 years and now the EJ25. It was expensive, but worth it to me. _________________ 1985 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
Vanagon owner since 1995 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
tjet Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014 Posts: 3528 Location: CA & NM
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
levi Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2005 Posts: 5522 Location: Las Vegas
|
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 or Subi...What to do, what to do??? |
|
|
Everybody has their own priorities, and considering you're fine with the power, it seems something reliable, quick and easy like a gowesty 2.2, 6,000-7,000 or so left in your pocket, and more power would be a no brainer. _________________ One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way
https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
hdenter Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2008 Posts: 2749 Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
|
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 or Subi...What to do, what to do??? |
|
|
My vote is for the WBX. With a caveat... $550 is a bit much for an unknown core and (INHO) a bit cheap for a good running with GOOD OIL PRESSURE 2.1 long block. Who's providing the 2.1 and what do they actually know about it? What's the hot idle oil pressure on your 1.9? The 1.9 has a more reliable bottom end. If I had to choose between doing a top end rebuild of a 1.9 that has known good oil pressure or a mystery 2.1 or even a 2.1 with so so pressure,. I'd take the 1.9. I can say from experience that the RMW exhaust adds a few ponies to the 1.9. I'm sure that the rockers and better injectors would make a difference, too. I'd even go so far as to suggest those things added on to a 1.9 would meet or exceed the power of a stock 2.1.
Now, if the 2.1 you have lined up was mechanically tested for good oil pressure at hot idle, then go for it. But... for not a lot of money more (since that engine is already out and on the ground) you could pop the heads and put in 2.2 piston/cylinders for a solid proven bump in hp. Add the other goodies to that 2.2 and your van will a have great bump in power, still be stock enough that any machanic can work on it and you will still be half the budget of the subbie swap.
Just my thoughts...
Hans _________________ '79 triple white convertible bug
'84 sunroof vanagon
'85 weekender |
|
Back to top |
|
|
owokie Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2003 Posts: 532
|
Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: 2.1 or Subi...What to do, what to do??? |
|
|
Since you're not DIY-ing, my vote is for the GW or Jennings "new" WBX. And I've got an EJ25 swap that I'm completely happy with.
Also, you're certain your compression issues are real? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
vanagonjr Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2010 Posts: 3425 Location: Dartmouth, Mass.
|
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:35 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 or Subi...What to do, what to do??? |
|
|
Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
What's the breakdown of the costs associated with whatever the mechanic is doing to the 2.1? Those prices seem kinda high for a non-rebuilt engine. Personally, I would skip the fancy rockers and exhaust, since you don't mind the current power output of the 1.9. Just focus on getting a solid running 2.1 to sit in there happily. You can always do upgrades later. If you have a complete donor engine, then the swap is very straight forward |
I got to agree for the most part. $5,500 is not a huge amount money for a power plant swap, but it seems (to me) a lot for an unknown engine install without addressing head gaskets, and rod bolts.
That stainless exhaust might be nice, but you do need to balance cost vs. benefit. For example, if a WBX is going back in, my first priorities, for a used engine, would be new rod bolts, (since mine went with no warning), head gaskets - which could quickly escalate into the need for new, or rebuilt heads, then replacing plastic bits in the cooling system, preferably with metal - coolant manifold, t-stat housing, etc. then hoses, FI pressure regulator etc.
These later items would be applied to a "new" GoWesty of RJE or other reputable builder's engine.
After that, then perhaps new injectors and the other bits you mentioned.
Only my opinion. _________________ John - 86 Wolfsburg Westfalia "Weekender"
Flint reversed 1.8T W/Passat 5-Speed
LiMBO (late model bus club) www.limbobus.org
LiMBO is on Facebook too! https://www.facebook.com/groups/
FAQ thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=525798 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
AZ Landshaper Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2009 Posts: 1698 Location: The Old Pueblo
|
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:14 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 or Subi...What to do, what to do??? |
|
|
Is the bhp of a 2.1 above 100?
I dont know how they get to 165hp in a suby 2.5 but that is a significant jump in horses w more modern technology.
Im a do-it-yourself type so suby it would be. I cant imagine dishing out 11k. _________________ Support Small Business.
-------------------------------------------------------
85 Weekender w/ EJ22
Previously
64, 71, 72, 73, 76, 81, 84, 85 & 87 Campmobiles and Westfalias
and a 67 bug. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
thomast Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 228
|
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:51 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 or Subi...What to do, what to do??? |
|
|
Thanks all for the feedback. I knew posting here I'd get my money's worth!
I believe the stock hp on a 2.1 is 95hp.
Before this van and before my Eurovan experiment, I had a 86 Westy with a subi 2.2. It was pretty great in most regards as far as power and reliability goes.
I'd have to imagine that a DIY subi swap at the minimum would be in the $4,000 to $5,000 area. You need a motor, the motor would need to be rebuilt, conversion kit, exhaust, etc. Maybe I'm off on that??
Like I said, if I had a decent shop space and time, that would probably be my path, but I have two low ceiling single car garages, unheated in MN. Currently my 17 year old and I are rebuilding his 1984 Toyota AE86 (towed out of a corn field in Iowa), putting in a used 16v 4AGE motor among other upgrades / fixes.
I've got two Colorado trips planned for late spring / early summer and my wife and I are taking the van to Quebec Canada this fall. Shelling out $5k for a fairly reliable engine with a bit more hp before the summer is a no brainer to me.
I'm going to discuss some of the questions you all have posted with my mechanic today regarding the stock 2.1 engine he has. I'll get some details about the motor and what upgrades / refreshes should be done before installing that motor in my van. I'll update the post with any new info he has for me.
Thanks again for the great feedback, I really appreciate it!
Thomas |
|
Back to top |
|
|
thomast Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 228
|
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:01 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 or Subi...What to do, what to do??? |
|
|
Here's some pics of the 85 on a Colorado trip last summer.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
seventyfo Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2007 Posts: 916 Location: Ocoee FL
|
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:13 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 or Subi...What to do, what to do??? |
|
|
Gowesty won’t accept a 1.9 core so you’d have to source a good 2.1 core to send back to them. I don’t think Rocky takes a 1.9 anymore either. _________________ 85 Vanagon GL Westy GW 2.2 (Rebuilt by YT)
"I don't know you well enough to care about your comments". Watkins Cravey |
|
Back to top |
|
|
thomast Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 228
|
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:15 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 or Subi...What to do, what to do??? |
|
|
Regarding the compression. My mechanic did a compression test and found two of the cylinders were under the normal range. He did say that it could be when at cruising speed there may not be much of a penalty, but since they are low, I would guess, their not going to get any better with time? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
seventyfo Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2007 Posts: 916 Location: Ocoee FL
|
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:18 am Post subject: Re: 2.1 or Subi...What to do, what to do??? |
|
|
_________________ 85 Vanagon GL Westy GW 2.2 (Rebuilt by YT)
"I don't know you well enough to care about your comments". Watkins Cravey
Last edited by seventyfo on Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|