2.1 or Subi...What to do, what to do???

[bobbyblack]

[tencentlife]

[Zeitgeist 13]

Darn you, masters of reality!


Every time I chime in on some 1.9 topic, I get burned by my own ignorance. Every. Time.

My only experiences with 1.9 vans are the kind converted to 2.1 engines/management, but still with the 1.9 cooling system.

[thomast]

Thanks for the link to Minnesota Westies!

mikemtbbike - I'm not apposed to more power and expect it with whatever I do end up doing. I want to spend under $7k (hopefully) and have it done by May. Reliability and a little more hp are my main goals right now.

I'm ok with spending that now and then down the road in who knows how many years, do something else.

Thanks for the input!
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1986 Westy Syncro SVX

[thomast]

shagginwagon83 - I think you just nailed my first year of retirement! Thanks!
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1986 Westy Syncro SVX

[Eric_Taylor]

This just nails it for me in thinking about the conversion. I'm coming at it from the same perspective and for the same reasons. I think it's about how long you feel like you'll have the van and what it will take to keep it going. This analysis just sums up all the reasons to me that the conversion would make sense for a longer term solution. You just can't beat a full refresh and the introduction of more modern parts that were produced in HUGE quantities. That's worth a bunch.

My concerns end up being the trans. I've got an Auto, and I enjoy that. I'm not super interested in doing the auto to manual conversion and going subaru trans. The concern is going with higher power, burning out the trans, and having to dump money into a rebuild that might last, or going subaru gears.

With that concern, the 2.2/2.3 WBX from a reliable builder (GW/RJE) starts to make more sense. The idea would be that your going to get a nice little bump in power, but stock gearing in the trans should work, and you've got a solid long block, without the cost of trans work or unknowns of a conversion. There is a lot of appeal here, and potentially a good cost savings when you consider the conversion PLUS possible trans questions down the line. It's a tough call in many ways, because I think the below is a strong argument for the conversion, but is that just a never ending rabbit hole and dumpster fire of money long term? As a keyboard mechanic, I just can't tell. The answer to many of these questions, and threads like this, seem to be, how big is your pocket book and what kind of failures/risk can it sustain? If money was no object, then I'd probably say screw it and go conversion and if it's a mess, go a different route because I think the project alone is fun and there is value in that.

[levi]

[levi]

By the way, I have to say something about #7 on that list above.

I've had several conversions now, going back 20 years, a couple different 2.2 Subaru's, 2.5 subaru, tiico, and now the reversed 1.8t. (all with manual transmission)

I don't think it's realistic to hope for a meaningful increase in mpg over a well tuned 1.9 wbx, unless it's diesel.
Maybe 1 mpg.
Just my experience, with gps numbers
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One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way

https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40

[seventyfo]

[danfromsyr]

I agree on #7 as well,
we've several vanagons with several differing powerplants.
the standards get 20-23mpg
the autos get 16-20mpg
depending on driver input, every MPH over 60 costs more fuel. same for every pound/Kg in weight.
my travel buddy throws his (4spd) van into Neutral as if it's another gear.. and gets ~24mpg.

the big gain in an engine conversion is maintaining a comfortable speed.. not having to row through the gears just to maybe lose speed on inclines or mtns.. but being able to roll with traffic at a comfortable pace.

it's always funny when discussing engine swaps, especially with Bay & split drivers.. that I hear "I Don't want to drive that fast, I want to see/enjoy the scenery"
well one doesn't have to drive any faster than they normally do with a swap, but they don't HAVE TO drive slower just because there's a hill/grade.

took my 1.8T van NY to FL this christmas,, most of which was 65~68mph on interstates.. I get a front end shimmy that's annoying at 70mph.. though it does go away at 76~78mph.

the biggest safety of an engine swap is the ability to get out and merge properly. especially on short or up hill on ramps.
also the ability to get out of the way or away from erratic drivers. a stock vanagon is usually very near it's capabilities at highway speeds. a swaped engine gives you alot more instant reserve.. which I find nice when traffic boxes you beside a tractor trailer and your interchange is coming up in a few miles.. which was panic inducing in my original air cooled motor.

I may get the same or similiar MPGs but I get more than double the available horse power than my OE engine for that MPGs

[tencentlife]

[Ahwahnee]

[danfromsyr]

and many more are still perfectly happy enjoying the view out the front windshield and not looking into the minuscule rear view mirror or wind adjusted side mirrors happily oblivious to the queue of cars or lumbering dump trucks behind them.

really all depends on what/where ones own personal comforts are while driving.
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[tencentlife]

[bobbyblack]

I have taken a good example from drivers I have appreciate while north of the US border... Those folks actually pull over into the swail and let faster traffic go by. I often find myself following that option, and even though it confuses those from the states, it makes my blood pressure get along with my kidneys much better. Even driving my Toyotas, I do this, even though, of course, I could easily push the pedal to 3/4 and fly by most traffic I find to be pokey, I usually just back off a bit and save the gas.
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'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch

[thomast]

Quick follow-up:

I've decided, much in part to the helpful responses to this thread and reading though many other threads, to go with the Gowesty 2.3 motor. I'll be ordering it in a few weeks. I'll update once it's in and driven a bit.

Thanks again everyone! Really appreciate all the information you provided. It was very helpful.
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1986 Westy Syncro SVX

[Wellington]

Only you know your cash flow, but....
The 2.1 you speak about $550, is only 10% of the total bill if you choose that route. $5000 is a lot of money to build around an unknow used motor.
I'm guessing your mechanic will use the 1.9l ignition and ECU, so really a very easy straight forward install.
Like others have said, consider a GW or Jennings rebuilt.
Subi swap, has your mechanic done a few before?
No point on paying for inexperience, and half way through he decides he overlooked a few items and needs to charge more.Consider doing a rebuilt 2.1 install yourself, lots of support here, very satisfying, and you will be familiar with your vans new lump.

Subi swap, a great choice too, but what is the state of the motor going in? Again, $13k is a lot to build around a high milage unknown motor. Sure today the compression is good, but what if you get an oil burner?
Thesamba has a lot of converted vans on here, but I think a majority of them are done by their owners, saving several thousands.

[thomast]

I do about 50% of the work on my van. Some stuff I'm very comfortable with and some not so much. Trial, error, age and some wisdom has taught me some things are better left to the professionals!

Wanting the van ready for travel by May 2019 and not having shop space to work on the van indoors (live in Minnesota), having Further Performance do the engine swap is a no brainer. They've done a number of GW engines along with Subaru conversions here in Minneapolis. The owner, Tristan lives and breaths VW's and I feel very comfortable having them do the work.

I know I could save some $$ doing the 2.1 used motor instead of the GW 2.3, and even more doing it myself, but aside from the fact that I have no time or space to do it, i'm playing the long game on this one and want a reliable, well thought out motor with a little more oomph than my tired 1.9 currently in the van and I want it installed right. I'll have a warranty on the motor and I'll have the backing of a great shop.

I know stuff will still break and no doubt I'll have to put my Premium AAA card to use at some point, but I've had enough with cobbling together things, holding my breath and hoping I make it over the next hill. Hitting the easy button this time. Money is not a deterrent.

Now it's time to choose a muffler system (RMW SS or GW SS) and figure out how to convert my non-working clock to a stock Vanagon tachometer.

Cheers!
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1986 Westy Syncro SVX

[Ahwahnee]

[thomast]

Thanks for the tip. I called them last week and they said right now they are about 1 to 2 weeks out for a 1.9 exchange on a 2.3 motor. Should be ordering it by the end of this week or early next.

Did you do the 2.3? What injectors and exhaust system did you use with your GW motor? I'm thinking about using the Marco injectors
( https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2209878 ) and the RMW SS exhaust.
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1986 Westy Syncro SVX