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Zeitgeist 13
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Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12115
Location: Port Manteau
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 Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:25 am Post subject: Re: syncro TDI = trans death? |
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I pulled the bellhousing off of a Syncro powered by a 1.8 NA engine, and the R&P was beat to shit. These trans can and will succumb to any engine powering them.
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
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pbrown
Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2008
Posts: 443
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:47 am Post subject: Re: syncro TDI = trans death? |
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I would really love to have a TDI Syncro. I’ve always heard that the Syncro tranny has a limit of 200hp and 200tq. I’m opting for a stock Subaru 2.5 SOHC motor for this reason.
I’m hoping that the new parts starting to imerge from GT will help. Time will tell.
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Patrick Brown
1986 Westy Syncro EJ25
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jackbombay
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2007
Posts: 2723
Location: Eastern Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:38 am Post subject: Re: syncro TDI = trans death? |
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| tjet wrote: |
| I keep wondering if a 2.1 WBX with a small turbocharger would be easier on the transmission vs a TDI. |
IMO it absolutely will. The TDI produces so much torque at less than 2000 RPM and just over 2000 RPM, this is what hurts the transmission, this is compounded by the fact that a TDI "pulls/feels right at lower RPM, so you have to intentionally keep it wound up more than you intuitively want to.
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AndyBees
Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2008
Posts: 2332
Location: Southeast Kentucky
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:53 am Post subject: Re: syncro TDI = trans death? |
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| jackbombay wrote: |
| tjet wrote: |
| I keep wondering if a 2.1 WBX with a small turbocharger would be easier on the transmission vs a TDI. |
IMO it absolutely will. The TDI produces so much torque at less than 2000 RPM and just over 2000 RPM, this is what hurts the transmission, this is compounded by the fact that a TDI "pulls/feels right at lower RPM, so you have to intentionally keep it wound up more than you intuitively want to |
Jack, explain that last phrase ...
I'm sure each has their own driving habits and practices.. that's a given.
I typically take the RPMs up to 3000 or slightly less when shifting, depending on immediate circumstances. I never drive in 3rd gear at, say 3500 RPMs, when 2200 to 2400 RPMs in 4th gear is sufficient for the circumstances. As others have stated, some people like to hear the hum of the higher RPMs. I very, very seldom take the RPMs beyond 3400......... max 3600 in my Jetta TDIs.
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'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003.
Last edited by AndyBees on Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dkoesyncro
Samba Member
Joined: December 10, 2006
Posts: 983
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:55 am Post subject: Re: syncro TDI = trans death? |
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| tjet wrote: |
| dkoesyncro wrote: |
| candyman wrote: |
| tjet wrote: |
| I keep wondering if a 2.1 WBX with a small turbocharger would be easier on the transmission vs a TDI. |
Im hoping yes, cuz i really want to do Marcos waterbox turbo when he releases it. I love the waterbox and a small turbo is all I need for a little extra performance |
After I see the results of my trans. I can give you an idea of what that combo will do. Ive been running an ABA with a small turbo, the ABA in stock form is a little more than a fraction of the wsrbxr. |
So your ABA turbo engine also destroyed a trans? |
Honestly I'm unsure, back to baseline!
My van had 260k on it when I got it! I rebuilt the boxer and put another 40k on it. Coming from the car scene I mulled over what would work best in the van. I new the ABA and compare it to any inline 4, it's a gasoline tractor engine. They go the distance, without fuss. I had approximately now 20k on the ABA and 320k on the trans.
This black hole started w/ addressing a rear main leak, adding the longer locker actuator bracket and pin, and the TB input shaft from Weddle. I have a BHW I was really hoping to swap and thought now's a good time if I'm going to go through with this.
I regularly changed gear oil, if not anually going into a 3k mile trip where I'd see long hrs on the hiway. My changes would never yield anything more than swarf and swarf on the magnet. |
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jackbombay
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Joined: October 19, 2007
Posts: 2723
Location: Eastern Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: syncro TDI = trans death? |
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| AndyBees wrote: |
| jackbombay wrote: |
| tjet wrote: |
| I keep wondering if a 2.1 WBX with a small turbocharger would be easier on the transmission vs a TDI. |
IMO it absolutely will. The TDI produces so much torque at less than 2000 RPM and just over 2000 RPM, this is what hurts the transmission, this is compounded by the fact that a TDI "pulls/feels right at lower RPM, so you have to intentionally keep it wound up more than you intuitively want to |
Jack, explain that last phrase ...
I typically take the RPMs up to 3000 or slightly less when shifting... |
That is where the TDI is happy, thats how I drive my TDI Jetta for sure, occasionally up to 3500, in 2nd or 3rd for merging or fun, but there's no reason to take it to 4000.
But, taking it to 3000 in a vanagon then shifting puts you into your next gear at about 2000 RPM when the TDI really spits out a stack of torque *if you push the pedal down notably*. So, after an upshift one must be gentle with the go pedal to not subject the trans to the high torque of the TDI, but, if you are in a situation where you need power (a steep hill or heavily loaded van for example) you should take the previous gear up to 3500+ so after your upshift you'll be at 2500 where the torque output is somewhat reduced compared to 2000, at least from 2500 as you accelerate the torque output will be dropping.
Cruising along at minimal throttle and 2000 RPM is fine as not much torque is being produced, but if you need the van to accelerate from such a scenario you should apply the go pedal gradually so by the time you have it depressed notably the RPMs are well above 2000 where torque output is reduced. Its a shame really as TDIs really love to pull hard from 2000 RPM, but thats decidedly how you shouldn't drive a TDI vanagon, IMO.
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AndyBees
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Joined: January 31, 2008
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Location: Southeast Kentucky
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:33 pm Post subject: Re: syncro TDI = trans death? |
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Jackbombay, and that is exactly how I do it ... may explain why my tranny hasn't gone down like a grenade as others have experienced.
In reference to 3000 RPMs, based on my boost gauge, that's about the maximum RPM where boost begins to fall off dramatically. Of course, circumstances, such as modest hill, load, head wind, etc., will affect when maximum boost occurs. The reason I mention this is there is no need to take the engine up to 4500 RPMs (or beyond 3600) to "blow-out" the Inter Cooler. I've never had an issue with excessive oil accumulation in any of my TDIs.
I like to cruise and watch the boost gauge.... it never stops moving (up or down) ever so much responding to the demands of the ECU which is reacting to road conditions. If everything is functioning properly, those adjustments are not felt at all....... at least by this human, maybe the transmission feels it.
Interestingly, a couple of days ago I was digging thru my stash of Flywheels, Clutch Discs and Pressure Plates looking for a used DMF to ship to CrazyVWman. I stumbled onto a TDI Clutch Disc with springs. I forgot about having it. I'd say the sprung disc in combo with the DMF would reduce engine pulses quite well. I cannot remember where I got that disc.
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'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
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dobryan
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vwwestyman
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Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: syncro TDI = trans death? |
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| AndyBees wrote: |
Interestingly, a couple of days ago I was digging thru my stash of Flywheels, Clutch Discs and Pressure Plates looking for a used DMF to ship to CrazyVWman. I stumbled onto a TDI Clutch Disc with springs. I forgot about having it. I'd say the sprung disc in combo with the DMF would reduce engine pulses quite well. I cannot remember where I got that disc. |
I'm starting to wonder if in fact I did lug the engine a little more than I initially supposed when Paul asked me that. I think I usually would shift around 3,000-3200 RPMs, which probably was getting it back down to those RPMs range that Jack was describing.
Also, as I'm thinking about it, my accelerator setup is a bit notchy. Which results in not so smooth acceleration at times. I wonder if that may have contributed. I've got thoughts on how to improve it, but just haven't gotten to that.
Anyone see any reason to NOT use a sprung clutch disc with a dual mass flywheel?
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Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
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jackbombay
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2007
Posts: 2723
Location: Eastern Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: syncro TDI = trans death? |
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| AndyBees wrote: |
| Jackbombay, and that is exactly how I do it ... may explain why my tranny hasn't gone down like a grenade as others have experienced. |
Yep!
| AndyBees wrote: |
| The reason I mention this is there is no need to take the engine up to 4500 RPMs (or beyond 3600) to "blow-out" the Inter Cooler. I've never had an issue with excessive oil accumulation in any of my TDIs. |
Same here, although every now and then I end up on a private test track in central Idaho in my 03' Jetta and I end up at 4000+ RPM in 5th gear, just because its fun 
| AndyBees wrote: |
| I stumbled onto a TDI Clutch Disc with springs. I forgot about having it. I'd say the sprung disc in combo with the DMF would reduce engine pulses quite well. I cannot remember where I got that disc. |
I have an SMF with a sprung clutch disc in my 03 Jetta, it's been in there so long I can't quite remember the details of "where it came from".
| dobryan wrote: |
| We do have an '03 Jetta tdi. |
ALH is the best you can get! 
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Stuartzickefoose
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Joined: February 07, 2008
Posts: 10350
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: syncro TDI = trans death? |
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| vwwestyman wrote: |
| AndyBees wrote: |
Interestingly, a couple of days ago I was digging thru my stash of Flywheels, Clutch Discs and Pressure Plates looking for a used DMF to ship to CrazyVWman. I stumbled onto a TDI Clutch Disc with springs. I forgot about having it. I'd say the sprung disc in combo with the DMF would reduce engine pulses quite well. I cannot remember where I got that disc. |
I'm starting to wonder if in fact I did lug the engine a little more than I initially supposed when Paul asked me that. I think I usually would shift around 3,000-3200 RPMs, which probably was getting it back down to those RPMs range that Jack was describing.
Also, as I'm thinking about it, my accelerator setup is a bit notchy. Which results in not so smooth acceleration at times. I wonder if that may have contributed. I've got thoughts on how to improve it, but just haven't gotten to that.
Anyone see any reason to NOT use a sprung clutch disc with a dual mass flywheel? |
notchy at the pedal? or at the engine? wondering if you have a buttysbits installed yet or not up front. wouldnt help if the engine is where its notchy though.
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jackbombay
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Joined: October 19, 2007
Posts: 2723
Location: Eastern Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: syncro TDI = trans death? |
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| vwwestyman wrote: |
Also, as I'm thinking about it, my accelerator setup is a bit notchy. Which results in not so smooth acceleration at times. I wonder if that may have contributed. I've got thoughts on how to improve it, but just haven't gotten to that. |
Do you have a cable running from the pedal to the DBW pedal set up in the rear? Is that the source of the notchiness? I'd mount the DBW pedal up front and you're sure to eliminate the notchiness that way. This assumes its not an M-TDI.
| vwwestyman wrote: |
Anyone see any reason to NOT use a sprung clutch disc with a dual mass flywheel? |
Seems like a good way to go that give more the trans more protection. I would do some searching on TDIclub to see if there is any info there about it.
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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: syncro TDI = trans death? |
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| Stuartzickefoose wrote: |
| vwwestyman wrote: |
| AndyBees wrote: |
Interestingly, a couple of days ago I was digging thru my stash of Flywheels, Clutch Discs and Pressure Plates looking for a used DMF to ship to CrazyVWman. I stumbled onto a TDI Clutch Disc with springs. I forgot about having it. I'd say the sprung disc in combo with the DMF would reduce engine pulses quite well. I cannot remember where I got that disc. |
I'm starting to wonder if in fact I did lug the engine a little more than I initially supposed when Paul asked me that. I think I usually would shift around 3,000-3200 RPMs, which probably was getting it back down to those RPMs range that Jack was describing.
Also, as I'm thinking about it, my accelerator setup is a bit notchy. Which results in not so smooth acceleration at times. I wonder if that may have contributed. I've got thoughts on how to improve it, but just haven't gotten to that.
Anyone see any reason to NOT use a sprung clutch disc with a dual mass flywheel? |
notchy at the pedal? or at the engine? wondering if you have a buttysbits installed yet or not up front. wouldnt help if the engine is where its notchy though. |
I connected the accelerator cable to the potentiometer at the back of the bus. I'm sure the issue is I don't get a smooth pull with the current setup. I think if I move the potentiometer up front with a very short cable, it would be way better.
Already installed the Buttybits kit.
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Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
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tjet 
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Joined: June 10, 2014
Posts: 3533
Location: CA & NM
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: syncro TDI = trans death? |
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| vwwestyman wrote: |
Anyone see any reason to NOT use a sprung clutch disc with a dual mass flywheel? |
That's what I have in my 02 TDI jetta. This is the kit I installed. I pulled out the auto and converted it to a 6 speed manual. It has the PD150 OEM Sachs Dual Mass Flywheel and Clutch kit
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=373687 |
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vwwestyman
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Joined: April 24, 2004
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Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: syncro TDI = trans death? |
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Cool cool!
In a similar thread, I was thinking about a DMF and sprung disc.
My setup uses a much deeper than usual bellhousing, so it's current flywheel sticks out away from the engine to put the clutch/ring gear in the right spot. That setup uses the same clutch parts as the aircooled Bus.
So I've been thinking, if I could get a spacer made, I could use a DMF and have it positioned properly. But since the pilot shaft of the transmission is also a special longer unit, I'm thinking maybe what I could do is use the DMF, a TDI pressure plate, and Bus sprung disc.
Unless I misread somewhere, I believe that both the Bus clutch setup and TDI setup are 228mm, so I think this whole planned setup should work. At least it does in my head...
And here is the other thread I mentioned.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=712231
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Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
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?Waldo?
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Joined: February 22, 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: syncro TDI = trans death? |
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| FWIW, the Mk3-Mk4 TDI's will rev up above 4,500 rpms without issue. Oil consumption gets a bit worse and fuel economy goes down a bit but no damage will result. The ALH and AHU don't even hit peak HP until 4,000 rpms. When attempting to accelerate quickly, it will both perform better and be easier on the trans to wait to shift until at least 4,000 rpms. Anyone running an eTDI can certainly have low rpm torque limited with a tune in order to limit the trans abuse. MTDI requires self-control. |
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dkoesyncro
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Joined: December 10, 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: syncro TDI = trans death? |
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| ?Waldo? wrote: |
| FWIW, the Mk3-Mk4 TDI's will rev up above 4,500 rpms without issue. Oil consumption gets a bit worse and fuel economy goes down a bit but no damage will result. The ALH and AHU don't even hit peak HP until 4,000 rpms. When attempting to accelerate quickly, it will both perform better and be easier on the trans to wait to shift until at least 4,000 rpms. Anyone running an eTDI can certainly have low rpm torque limited with a tune in order to limit the trans abuse. MTDI requires self-control. |
Interesting when I think of tuning it's usually getting more out of a system vs. de-tuning. Ive believed that the manufacturer sets everything to run at safe/longevity and this base was for the most part as low as the bar can be set. |
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jackbombay
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Joined: October 19, 2007
Posts: 2723
Location: Eastern Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: syncro TDI = trans death? |
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| dkoesyncro wrote: |
| ?Waldo? wrote: |
| FWIW, the Mk3-Mk4 TDI's will rev up above 4,500 rpms without issue. Oil consumption gets a bit worse and fuel economy goes down a bit but no damage will result. The ALH and AHU don't even hit peak HP until 4,000 rpms. When attempting to accelerate quickly, it will both perform better and be easier on the trans to wait to shift until at least 4,000 rpms. Anyone running an eTDI can certainly have low rpm torque limited with a tune in order to limit the trans abuse. MTDI requires self-control. |
Interesting when I think of tuning it's usually getting more out of a system vs. de-tuning. Ive believed that the manufacturer sets everything to run at safe/longevity and this base was for the most part as low as the bar can be set. |
The fuel map can be reduced at any/all RPMs, having fueling reduced until 2500 RPM is a viable option if lesser technically inclined people will be driving the vehicle.
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levi
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: syncro TDI = trans death? |
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I seem to remember reading that the power delivery from a diesel engine to the transmission is more angular on a graph, in effect like a jackhammer, whereas gasoline engines deliver smoother, more gradual impulses to the transmission.
If so, and I'm not saying it is, then 200 lbs torque from a diesel would obviously have a different impact upon the transmission vs 200 lbs torque from a gas engine
Even a very small difference in power impulses would have a cumulative detrimental effect, like tapping a boulder a million times with a small hammer vs steady pressure.
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?Waldo?
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: syncro TDI = trans death? |
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| jackbombay wrote: |
| The fuel map can be reduced at any/all RPMs, having fueling reduced until 2500 RPM is a viable option if lesser technically inclined people will be driving the vehicle. |
Ha, that's a great way of saying it although I'd expand it to include people either less technically inclined, or less inclined toward self control. |
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We do have an '03 Jetta tdi.