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c21darrel
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PFF
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Joined: December 22, 2010
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 Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:41 am Post subject: Re: 1959 Denzel Lowlight Ghia at Gooding |
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I’m one of the Team from Just Kampers and stumbled over this thread whilst looking for information on Denzel Engines I hope I can help clear up a few of the questions.
The Ghia was bought for 2 reasons, Mark was looking for a Low Light and another car to compete in historic Rally events when this one came up with the Denzel engine it was considered the perfect candidate.
We are well aware of most of the inaccuracy’s of the restoration the plan is to run the car for a few years then possibly carry out a full body of restoration. And correct some of the issues the car is a 59 model built in 58 I cant clear up the padded dash question but I can say there are no screw holes in the dash.
We have been through the car getting it ready for racing, upgraded the brakes to Porsche 356 with a dual master cylinder and used Porsche style 5.5” rims, fitted heavy duty roll bar, a steering damper, safety equipment etc. We also replaced the starter motor dynamo and wiper motor and converted it to 12 Volt so we could power the Brantz Rally Meter. The clock was swapped out for a rev counter the engine was gone through then Mark used the car as a daily driver and put over a thousand miles on in 2 weeks shaking out a few bugs and making certain it would be reliable.
We set off on Wednesday the 18th back to Italy to take part in the Gran Premio Nuvoari https://www.gpnuvolari.it/en-ww/gran-premio-nuvolari-edition.aspx You can follow our progress on our blog https://www.justkampers.com/jkblog/ or Face Book page https://www.facebook.com/justkampers |
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djway3474
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Joined: August 19, 2011
Posts: 2582
Location: The Real NDK So Cal
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:19 am Post subject: Re: 1959 Denzel Lowlight Ghia at Gooding |
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Oct 58 build date, no pad
Correct fabrics and heat seamed door panels.
I think I am going to take another shot at the seats and see if I can get them perfect. OCD 
Cant afford the rubber mats
There are so many things wrong with the red car that 40k seems high with a regular 36hp as there are some dollars to be spent to make it correct. |
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laneven28
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Joined: January 09, 2007
Posts: 312
Location: Cedar Hills, Utah
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:29 pm Post subject: Re: 1959 Lowlight at Gooding |
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| morts wrote: |
| laneven28 wrote: |
I have an unrestored May 1959 Cognac coupe that doesn't have a dash pad, and can't see any evidence it ever had one.
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Touche lanevan! I also have a 1959 cognac coupe (built 7 April, 1959 according to the birth certificate) and it doesn't have a dash pad or any evidence of ever having one either. |
I stand corrected. Looking closer, it seems i do have the screws in place that once held a dash pad...
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1950 Pearl Grey Hoffman Standard Split Window
1954 Iceland Green Euro 3-Fold Oval
1955 Strato Silver Transitional 3-Fold Oval
1956 Iris Blue Convertible
1958 Pearl White Lowlight KG Convertible
1961 Turkis Ragtop |
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McFunzeepants
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Joined: February 04, 2015
Posts: 123
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:57 am Post subject: Re: 1959 Denzel Lowlight Ghia at Gooding |
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| Strange, my 10th of February 1959 (VIN#2282XX) has a dash pad, no retaining strip and the dash's sheet metal is shaped for a dash pad. No evidence of screw holes for the retaining strip, but there are for the dash pad. |
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morts
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Joined: May 03, 2007
Posts: 70
Location: Orstraylia
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:14 am Post subject: Re: 1959 Lowlight at Gooding |
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| laneven28 wrote: |
I have an unrestored May 1959 Cognac coupe that doesn't have a dash pad, and can't see any evidence it ever had one.
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Touche lanevan! I also have a 1959 cognac coupe (built 7 April, 1959 according to the birth certificate) and it doesn't have a dash pad or any evidence of ever having one either.
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Braukuche
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Joined: September 03, 2004
Posts: 11005
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:27 am Post subject: Re: 1959 Denzel Lowlight Ghia at Gooding |
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| John Moxon wrote: |
| EverettB wrote: |
| Braukuche wrote: |
| I've never driven a Pre A but heard they drove like crap. But hard to believe they drove worse than an oval Beetle. |
I've driven a '52 356 but only for maybe 1/2 a mile.
It was on sort of crappy roads but it seemed to drive fine to me.
I'm pretty sure the owner had it in top mechanical condition.
I can't recall if it drove better or worse than an Oval.
I did own and drive an Oval for 6-12 months a very long time ago, I remember it driving fine. |
I have a friend who has a '52 356 vert and a '52 356 Coupe...he drives them to vintage Porsche shows all over Europe. He wouldn't do that if they drove like crap I assure you.  |
My crap comment has to do with handling. They are a shadow of what the later cars were in that department from what a friend and others have told me who have owned them as well as later A cars. Again, I've never driven one so I can't say. I do own several B coupes and they are fantastic, but that's comparing apples to oranges.
I have driven and owned ovals and they are very primitive compared even to a mid 60s Beetle. Braking and handling and power wise. That's why I never hung on to them.
Earliest Ghia I have had is a 1960 which was much more pleasurable to drive than a 60 Bug. I can't wait to drive my 56 nad see how it compares to an Oval.
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Go Reds! Smash state!
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1956 Ghia
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 double cab
1960 Baja Bug
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1962 Golde sunroof Ghia
1963 356 B coupe
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John Moxon 
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Joined: March 07, 2004
Posts: 13957
Location: Southampton U.K.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:12 am Post subject: Re: 1959 Denzel Lowlight Ghia at Gooding |
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| EverettB wrote: |
| Braukuche wrote: |
| I've never driven a Pre A but heard they drove like crap. But hard to believe they drove worse than an oval Beetle. |
I've driven a '52 356 but only for maybe 1/2 a mile.
It was on sort of crappy roads but it seemed to drive fine to me.
I'm pretty sure the owner had it in top mechanical condition.
I can't recall if it drove better or worse than an Oval.
I did own and drive an Oval for 6-12 months a very long time ago, I remember it driving fine. |
I have a friend who has a '52 356 vert and a '52 356 Coupe...he drives them to vintage Porsche shows all over Europe. He wouldn't do that if they drove like crap I assure you.
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Braukuche
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Joined: September 03, 2004
Posts: 11005
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: 1959 Denzel Lowlight Ghia at Gooding |
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Started reading the article, thanks for the link.
Pretty cool, the real Mr Okrassa and one of the key early Porsche guys, so no doubt they knew what they were doing.
The Porsche had a 1300 version, rated at 45PS, the Okrasa engine about the same.
i bet a Ghia with an Okrasa would leave both of them in the dust!
_________________
Go Reds! Smash state!
Retirement is here!
1956 Ghia
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 double cab
1960 Baja Bug
1963 stretched double cab
1962 Golde sunroof Ghia
1963 356 B coupe
1963 Notchback
1967 21 window less rusty now |
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EverettB
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Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69827
Location: Phoenix Metro
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: 1959 Denzel Lowlight Ghia at Gooding |
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| Braukuche wrote: |
| I've never driven a Pre A but heard they drove like crap. But hard to believe they drove worse than an oval Beetle. |
I've driven a '52 356 but only for maybe 1/2 a mile.
It was on sort of crappy roads but it seemed to drive fine to me.
I'm pretty sure the owner had it in top mechanical condition.
I can't recall if it drove better or worse than an Oval.
I did own and drive an Oval for 6-12 months a very long time ago, I remember it driving fine.
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EverettB
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:11 pm Post subject: Re: 1959 Denzel Lowlight Ghia at Gooding |
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| Braukuche wrote: |
| aerosilver wrote: |
| Headed to the UK, bought by the MD of JustKampers, will possibly be here in time for the Volksworld show.. (check JK's FB page) |
Was Old Bug really trying to sell that car for $180k?
The FB page said they got it for a third less than what Randy was asking. |
It was $85K on the oldbug site, I posted the link on page 1.
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KGCoupe
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Joined: July 01, 2005
Posts: 3580
Location: Putting the "ill" and "annoy" in Illinois
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: 1959 Denzel Lowlight Ghia at Gooding |
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| Braukuche wrote: |
If anyone find that article post a link.
A Pre A could have came with an anemic 1200cc engine I believe. I think you had the option of that and the 1300 and maybe 1500?
I've never driven a Pre A but heard they drove like crap. But hard to believe they drove worse than an oval Beetle. |
As I mentioned, a PDF of that Motor Klassiks article can be seen in the JustKampers.com article that I provided the link for above.
Here is a more direct link to that same PDF version of the Motor Klassiks August 1989 article ...
https://docs.google.com/viewerng/viewer?url=https:...d-Test.pdf
Considering the fact that these Denzel engine parts are listed for sale right here on The Samba for $11k ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1990234 ... it seems reasonable that a complete running Denzel engine may be worth more than twice as much.
But then again those same Denzel parts have been listed for sale here for over two years now, so they obviously aren't any great bargain. |
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Braukuche
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Joined: September 03, 2004
Posts: 11005
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: 1959 Denzel Lowlight Ghia at Gooding |
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| aerosilver wrote: |
| Headed to the UK, bought by the MD of JustKampers, will possibly be here in time for the Volksworld show.. (check JK's FB page) |
Was Old Bug really trying to sell that car for $180k?
The FB page said they got it for a third less than what Randy was asking.
_________________
Go Reds! Smash state!
Retirement is here!
1956 Ghia
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 double cab
1960 Baja Bug
1963 stretched double cab
1962 Golde sunroof Ghia
1963 356 B coupe
1963 Notchback
1967 21 window less rusty now |
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Braukuche
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Joined: September 03, 2004
Posts: 11005
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: 1959 Denzel Lowlight Ghia at Gooding |
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| KGCoupe wrote: |
| aerosilver wrote: |
| Headed to the UK, bought by the MD of JustKampers, will possibly be here in time for the Volksworld show.. (check JK's FB page) |
I don't have a FB account, but Google helped me find the JustKampers website.
Although I found no mention there yet of the Denzel powered Karmann Ghia, there was this link to an interesting story about how they picked up a historic OG Okrasa engine with the intent of installing it in a 1956 Oval to be entered in the 2017 Mille Miglia Rally.
It turns out they wisely had a newly built copy of that OG Okrasa engine made to preserve the actual "historically important" original, as they didn't want to be responsible for inadvertantly damaging it during the race.
More to the point, they go on to explain the reason they feel the original was "historically important" ...
| JustKampers wrote: |
...
The original engine was built to settle a dispute between two old friends about whos car was faster: A pre-a Porsche 356, or a VW Beetle fitted with an Okrasa race engine and ancillaries. The pair got their cars in order, and then hired out the Nurburgring for the day so that they could race and settle the bet.
When it was all over, the Beetle with the Okrasa engine was the winner! We’ve got a copy of the magazine article detailing the whole race here at JK HQ, and it’s a really interesting read (once you’ve translated it from German).
... |
A PDF copy of that August 1989 Motor Klassik article is then thoughtfully embedded in the JustKampers article.
That article coincidentally provides a very interesting answer to my earlier question of how a vintage speed equipped Type I VW might compare to a Porsche 356 from the same era.
It also makes it clear that the staff of JustKampers has a keen interest in vintage speed equipment made for Volkswagen engines.
From that fact, we might conclude that getting their hands on the Denzel engine was the primary reason that they paid so much for a lowlight coupe with so many "incorrect" details.
It also begs the question of whether or not they intend to enter that Denzel powered Karmann Ghia in the next running of the Mille Miglia or another similar rally.
 |
If anyone find that article post a link.
A Pre A could have came with an anemic 1200cc engine I believe. I think you had the option of that and the 1300 and maybe 1500?
I've never driven a Pre A but heard they drove like crap. But hard to believe they drove worse than an oval Beetle.
_________________
Go Reds! Smash state!
Retirement is here!
1956 Ghia
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 double cab
1960 Baja Bug
1963 stretched double cab
1962 Golde sunroof Ghia
1963 356 B coupe
1963 Notchback
1967 21 window less rusty now |
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KGCoupe
Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2005
Posts: 3580
Location: Putting the "ill" and "annoy" in Illinois
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: 1959 Denzel Lowlight Ghia at Gooding |
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| aerosilver wrote: |
| Headed to the UK, bought by the MD of JustKampers, will possibly be here in time for the Volksworld show.. (check JK's FB page) |
I don't have a FB account, but Google helped me find the JustKampers website.
Although I found no mention there yet of the Denzel powered Karmann Ghia, there was this link to an interesting story about how they picked up a historic OG Okrasa engine with the intent of installing it in a 1956 Oval to be entered in the 2017 Mille Miglia Rally.
It turns out they wisely had a newly built copy of that OG Okrasa engine made to preserve the actual "historically important" original, as they didn't want to be responsible for inadvertantly damaging it during the race.
More to the point, they go on to explain the reason they feel the original was "historically important" ...
| JustKampers wrote: |
...
The original engine was built to settle a dispute between two old friends about whos car was faster: A pre-a Porsche 356, or a VW Beetle fitted with an Okrasa race engine and ancillaries. The pair got their cars in order, and then hired out the Nurburgring for the day so that they could race and settle the bet.
When it was all over, the Beetle with the Okrasa engine was the winner! We’ve got a copy of the magazine article detailing the whole race here at JK HQ, and it’s a really interesting read (once you’ve translated it from German).
... |
A PDF copy of that August 1989 Motor Klassik article is then thoughtfully embedded in the JustKampers article.
That article coincidentally provides a very interesting answer to my earlier question of how a vintage speed equipped Type I VW might compare to a Porsche 356 from the same era.
It also makes it clear that the staff of JustKampers has a keen interest in vintage speed equipment made for Volkswagen engines.
From that fact, we might conclude that getting their hands on the Denzel engine was the primary reason that they paid so much for a lowlight coupe with so many "incorrect" details.
It also begs the question of whether or not they intend to enter that Denzel powered Karmann Ghia in the next running of the Mille Miglia or another similar rally.
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aerosilver
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Joined: July 29, 2006
Posts: 882
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: 1959 Denzel Lowlight Ghia at Gooding |
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| Headed to the UK, bought by the MD of JustKampers, will possibly be here in time for the Volksworld show.. (check JK's FB page) |
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Karmann Gheezer
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Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:33 pm Post subject: Re: 1959 Denzel Lowlight Ghia at Gooding |
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| theghiagirl wrote: |
| Loren wrote: |
My original May 12, 1959 build lowlight has a dash pad
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Loren, do you mind sharing the first 4 digits of your vin? I find it interesting that your Ghia was built May 12, 1959 and clearly has the retaining vent plates and retaining strip on the bottom edge of the dash. The data posted by GHIA shows that July 6,1959 was the start of the retaining vent plates and retaining strip at lower edge. |
Surprising my June '59 does not have the retaining vent plates or edge strip that Loren's earlier Ghia has.
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aerosilver
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:21 am Post subject: Re: 1959 Denzel Lowlight Ghia at Gooding |
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HOT VW's October 02..
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John Moxon
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Posts: 13957
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Braukuche
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Joined: September 03, 2004
Posts: 11005
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: 1959 Lowlight at Gooding |
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| KGCoupe wrote: |
| Douglas Denlinger wrote: |
I looked this car over at Gooding, couldn't stay for the bidding, so thanks for posting the results. There were several paint repairs that were blatantly obvious, even in the poorly lit corner where it was displayed. Would have been nice to have the engine lid open to inspect the engine. Also would have nice to know "WHEN" the engine was mated with the car, documentation. Description was less than revealing.
Yes many wrong details, if I remember this car was restored 20/25 years ago for a TN collector who has been selling. |
"Would have been nice" is the understatement of the young year!
I find it absolutely shocking that bidders weren't able to personally inspect that portion of the Ghia that essentially doubled its value.
Judging by the level of bidding, though, there apparently were at least a few people willing to gamble on what they only saw photos of.
So is the Denzel performance set-up really better than any of the more readily available vintage speed set-ups such as Okrassa, Judson, etc., or is it just the rarity of the Denzel engine that makes it so desirable?
How does the performance of the best vintage speed set-ups for a Type I VW engine compare with that of a Porsche stock 356 or Super 90 engine? |
I doubt that actual performance is the issue. You could get similar HP out of a well built 1600 dual port.
Porsche engines from the time were 60hp 75hp and I think they had the Super 90hp by then, so more than a Denzel.
There is a lot of speculation on the value of the Denzel and if the person who Bought the car even knows about the history of Denzel or its significance. It would be funny if it turns out they bought the car because they needed the engine for a Denzel body!
_________________
Go Reds! Smash state!
Retirement is here!
1956 Ghia
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 double cab
1960 Baja Bug
1963 stretched double cab
1962 Golde sunroof Ghia
1963 356 B coupe
1963 Notchback
1967 21 window less rusty now |
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