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bugguy1967 Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008 Posts: 4338 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:15 am Post subject: Re: Thinking about other piston options... |
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Thanks Luke! I can also help with those 22R pistons at a much better price than AA.
They have about a .080" dish and valve relief. I can turn them into flat tops, which would reduce the compression distance, order them .5 or 1mm oversize, and bore/hone the 92mm thick walls for correct skirt clearance.
What makes them suitable for boost is their pin wall thickness and their crown thickness.
[email protected] is my email. I hate p/m-ing back and forth. _________________ "A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine" |
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rugblaster Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2016 Posts: 1163 Location: San Angelo, Texas
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Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:09 am Post subject: Re: Thinking about other piston options... |
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I spoke to Mike at Wiseco and he said the 94mm forged pistons have a "strut" slipper skirt, they are "cam" machined (the skirt is not round, but "barrel" shaped}, the skirts have ArmorGlide applied to them and the pins are centered. That is weird because he said most of their pistons have offset pins. (I'm thinking about LS chevy slipper pistons)
I asked him why the pins were not machined offset and he said that was what the cam machining and the coating were all about and he said if they were installed at the recommended clearance, there shouldn't be a problem.
I forgot to ask him if the skirt was asymmetrical.
It would be fun (and expensive) to try these at the recommended clearance just to see if they run slap-free. I think they are about $100 a piece with rings. _________________ '69 Karmy, '69 Camper, Meyers clone, '65 drag bug, 10.78 @ 128 (sold it) '51 Dodge farm truck,
'09 MB E350 '18 MB E400, '65 Plymouth Valiant convertible and a '19 Ford F250 King Ranch (nicer, but dirty, farm truck)
VWoA factory trained line tech 75 till 90 or so
ASE Master Certification
VWoA Assoc. of Quality Technicians inductee (One of 25 in the five state southwest region)
La Confrerie des Chevaliers du Tastevin (San Angelo Chapter)
TCU ......GO FROGS!!!!!!
Last edited by rugblaster on Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:39 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26743 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:05 am Post subject: Re: Thinking about other piston options... |
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Still a good idea for the right application, although they don't seem to be as low priced anymore.
If you have straight cut gears, and a fk-something cam, and a flowmaster two chamber muffler, I don't think you will be bothered by a little piston slap |
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rugblaster Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2016 Posts: 1163 Location: San Angelo, Texas
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Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: Thinking about other piston options... |
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I'll call them tomorrow......and get the particulars. With the way they make asymmetrical, barrel-shaped skirts on these slipper skirt pistons, it is doubtful they wouldn't have an offset pin. _________________ '69 Karmy, '69 Camper, Meyers clone, '65 drag bug, 10.78 @ 128 (sold it) '51 Dodge farm truck,
'09 MB E350 '18 MB E400, '65 Plymouth Valiant convertible and a '19 Ford F250 King Ranch (nicer, but dirty, farm truck)
VWoA factory trained line tech 75 till 90 or so
ASE Master Certification
VWoA Assoc. of Quality Technicians inductee (One of 25 in the five state southwest region)
La Confrerie des Chevaliers du Tastevin (San Angelo Chapter)
TCU ......GO FROGS!!!!!! |
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Type 5 Joe Banned
Joined: January 18, 2003 Posts: 1795 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: Thinking about other piston options... |
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Yes, I figured the pictures were just stock photos...
I looked on Wiseco's site and you can't search by part number... They want you to plug in make, model, etc... Bullshit.
- Unless I'm missing it. _________________ If you would like to contact me, just email through one of my ads on here...
I don't use the P.M. service on here. |
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rugblaster Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2016 Posts: 1163 Location: San Angelo, Texas
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Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: Thinking about other piston options... |
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That part number is in Wiseco's catalog.......Also has footnote numbers "1" and "2" indicating they have pin offset. They are flat tops and are meant for the end user to machine whatever valve notches they need, if needed.
Those photos you're looking at are just generic photos. _________________ '69 Karmy, '69 Camper, Meyers clone, '65 drag bug, 10.78 @ 128 (sold it) '51 Dodge farm truck,
'09 MB E350 '18 MB E400, '65 Plymouth Valiant convertible and a '19 Ford F250 King Ranch (nicer, but dirty, farm truck)
VWoA factory trained line tech 75 till 90 or so
ASE Master Certification
VWoA Assoc. of Quality Technicians inductee (One of 25 in the five state southwest region)
La Confrerie des Chevaliers du Tastevin (San Angelo Chapter)
TCU ......GO FROGS!!!!!! |
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Type 5 Joe Banned
Joined: January 18, 2003 Posts: 1795 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: Thinking about other piston options... |
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I looked those up several places on the interweb...
None of the ads I saw said they were machined for wrist pin offset.
Almost every photo showed a water cooled piston with 4 valve reliefs...
Can you post a link to the description / ad you saw? _________________ If you would like to contact me, just email through one of my ads on here...
I don't use the P.M. service on here. |
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rugblaster Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2016 Posts: 1163 Location: San Angelo, Texas
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Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: Thinking about other piston options... |
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Wiseco makes part number K001ESV 94mm with offset pin _________________ '69 Karmy, '69 Camper, Meyers clone, '65 drag bug, 10.78 @ 128 (sold it) '51 Dodge farm truck,
'09 MB E350 '18 MB E400, '65 Plymouth Valiant convertible and a '19 Ford F250 King Ranch (nicer, but dirty, farm truck)
VWoA factory trained line tech 75 till 90 or so
ASE Master Certification
VWoA Assoc. of Quality Technicians inductee (One of 25 in the five state southwest region)
La Confrerie des Chevaliers du Tastevin (San Angelo Chapter)
TCU ......GO FROGS!!!!!! |
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Type 5 Joe Banned
Joined: January 18, 2003 Posts: 1795 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: Thinking about other piston options... |
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All of the non-wrist pin offset pistons are a bit noisy until they warm up....
That is why they put wrist pin offset in the stock design, to eliminate this.
+ Many of these pistons that were made for other vehicles were designed to be run at water cooled running temperatures...
So the initial cold clearance is a bit more, until they expand.
VW pistons are designed for VW's... The composition of materials, design, etc... Gene Berg made a big deal out of pointing this out when he compared his custom made stuff to others on the market.
BTW, he had his stuff made ie: "Gene Berg Specials" by the OEM suppliers to VW. _________________ If you would like to contact me, just email through one of my ads on here...
I don't use the P.M. service on here. |
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King_vw61 Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2018 Posts: 1383 Location: Southern California
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Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Thinking about other piston options... |
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Venolia makes them. Not sure the cost, mine were already in the engine.
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UK Luke 72 Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2011 Posts: 2867 Location: Little Britain
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Thinking about other piston options... |
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slap is a non issue and should be considerd any thing....unless you have tomuch clearance and tight wrist pins . then thats not the pistons pin location fault... I would however look in to v8 piston sets as you can get 8 for the price of 4 many times. manley, dss,diamond ,icon and many others. |
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67rustavenger Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015 Posts: 9666 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:48 am Post subject: Re: Thinking about other piston options... |
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FreeBug wrote: |
67rustavenger wrote: |
Type 5 Joe wrote: |
No, JE is another "racing" piston and does not have wrist pin offset. |
^^^ This is correct. I have a set in my 2180. There is no wrist pin offset.
Good Luck. |
How bad is the slap? Is it noticeably louder until it warms up? After warm up? how streetable would you say they are? Thanks |
I have no idea. Yet!
The engine is currently waiting for the better weather driving season.
I have it running on the start stand. Time will tell.
It will likely be installed late March or April. _________________ I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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FreeBug Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012 Posts: 4278 Location: deepest, darkest Switzerland
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Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Thinking about other piston options... |
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67rustavenger wrote: |
Type 5 Joe wrote: |
No, JE is another "racing" piston and does not have wrist pin offset. |
^^^ This is correct. I have a set in my 2180. There is no wrist pin offset.
Good Luck. |
How bad is the slap? Is it noticeably louder until it warms up? After warm up? how streetable would you say they are? Thanks |
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67rustavenger Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015 Posts: 9666 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Thinking about other piston options... |
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Type 5 Joe wrote: |
No, JE is another "racing" piston and does not have wrist pin offset. |
^^^ This is correct. I have a set in my 2180. There is no wrist pin offset.
Good Luck. _________________ I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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Type 5 Joe Banned
Joined: January 18, 2003 Posts: 1795 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Thinking about other piston options... |
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No, JE is another "racing" piston and does not have wrist pin offset. _________________ If you would like to contact me, just email through one of my ads on here...
I don't use the P.M. service on here. |
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dubman67 Samba Member
Joined: April 10, 2003 Posts: 273 Location: Big Sky Country
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Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:34 am Post subject: Re: Thinking about other piston options... |
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FeelthySanchez wrote: |
I noted that both the links show "Centered pin" configuration - which means you'd be driving in piston slap city if they were installed into the flat 4.
Re specs for N/A vs. turbo apps, it mostly has to do w/ strength (forged vs. cast), piston-to-cylinder wall clearances & the ring's butt gaps (turbo needs greater for both).
Having owned/rebuilt a 22R, I've pondered it as well, but found that unless one was rolling in un-needed 22R pistons - not practical. |
Does anybody know if these pistons have the offset?
https://aapistons.com/collections/piston-liner-kit...4mm-case-m
If anything, I'll stick to the old tried and true Cima / Mahle. I don't really trust AA pistons. _________________ 67 Bug
62 Double Cab
[url=https://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate2-54829.png]Click to view image[/URL]
"At 17 got my first Volkswagen...and mastered the life long art of dragin...." Ice Cube |
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FreeBug Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012 Posts: 4278 Location: deepest, darkest Switzerland
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Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:57 am Post subject: Re: Thinking about other piston options... |
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Sorry if he doesn't want to get pulled into this thread, but it was Modok who talked about it, iirc.
I've ratted him out because I'm also interested in this. I've been thinking AA hypereutectics with an adjustment of the TW cylinders to piston size, and Toyota rings. |
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Type 5 Joe Banned
Joined: January 18, 2003 Posts: 1795 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: Thinking about other piston options... |
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Except mahle / Cima and AAAnal
Who else makes a performance piston with wrist pin offset?
All the racing pistons I have used Wiseco, etc... do not. _________________ If you would like to contact me, just email through one of my ads on here...
I don't use the P.M. service on here. |
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FeelthySanchez Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2011 Posts: 1349 Location: Now is that a real poncho, or a Sears poncho?
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Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: Thinking about other piston options... |
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I noted that both the links show "Centered pin" configuration - which means you'd be driving in piston slap city if they were installed into the flat 4.
Re specs for N/A vs. turbo apps, it mostly has to do w/ strength (forged vs. cast), piston-to-cylinder wall clearances & the ring's butt gaps (turbo needs greater for both).
Having owned/rebuilt a 22R, I've pondered it as well, but found that unless one was rolling in un-needed 22R pistons - not practical. _________________
modok wrote: |
I would like if you had enough clue to communicate what you are doing. |
Ryan Tucker wrote: |
Enough clue..Whats that mean? |
OldIronSpine wrote: |
I'm not sure how compression works.
Turbos don't produce torque, they produce HP. Instead of torque.
The real problem with NA engines is you don't hear the nice whine of the turbo as it spools up.
Before I commit, I'm going to do more research because I don't really know what piston rings are. |
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