Beehives Done Rong

[Clatter]

So, I'm trying to suss my very first set of beehive springs on my type 4...


First off, the type 4 uses a bit larger diameter springs than a beetle.
Typically, a set of duals for beetle will fit over the guide boss of a type 4 with a little push.
Because the spring increases it's OD upon compression, it's all good.
Beehives are a bit thicker, so no big deal,
We'll cut the guide boss to the proper type 1 size so they clear.
A little adjusting of the ol' cutter, and away we go.
(Also made a 9mm pilot for the thing, since we are doing some stock exhaust valves this time).

Once you get 'em cut so they clear the guide boss, there is a bit 'o room between the boss and the ID of the spring shim.

Found these other shims in the collection here; from some other vehicle.
They locate on the OD of the spring seat cut, so they won't move around,
But they are a bit bigger on the ID.
This shouldn't be an issue, right?

Lastly,
I'm trying to use these with a Web 163/86B.
The 163 is the easy part, but, the 86B part is proving a bit more challenging.
Web 86B is supposed to lift .507 at the valve.

My installed height is leaving me unable to have the shims in place,
Yet keep my .060 or so from bind..

Hopefully, when i get to mocking up here tomorrow,
The exhaust rockers will be well below the purported 1.3 ratio,
And I'll find some room...?

How important is it to have shims?
I always thought they kept the oil cleaner by keeping the spring from chewing on the head.
Maybe i can grind a little bevel into the very bottom leading edge of the spring where it might be digging?

Anybody have idears about what i might do here?
Certainly someone has a trick or two my little brain would never thinkthink..
_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[Wreck]

All the info I could find gave standard type 4 rockers at 1.25 ratio . I don’t know if Web calculate that into their type 4 grinds . I know scat doesn’t .
You may only have .488 lift on the exhaust .

[mark tucker]

check real tyme lift!! and deburr the springs ALWAYS!!! inside and outer dia. and lastly you can get hp shims that are .015,.030,.060, so choose what you need. since the spring is tapered I wood of cut the guide boss at a taper too. and I dont really like leaving a sharp corrner at the bottom of the cut. you can also cut the guide boss down with a shim there so...it stays the same size where the shim locates on it.
seems like a lot of work for a spring that dosent take much lift.....
also the serations go down agnist the head.... and if you do get the hard hp shims.... dont take any bodys word that thats what they are.. try to bend one.. if it bends it's not a hard shim and wont work. there is a slew of purple shit shims on the market that are sold as hardened because there purple like spring steel but they are very soft steel. dont use soft steel. HP are hardned.
you may be able to get taller retainers or remachine those for taller installed hight. or depending on what type keepers you use you may be able to get higher installed hight keepers too. remachining of retainers is simple. and lightens them at the same tyme!!!! I usualy lighten my retainers and remachine them any way I want them. steel and titanium retainers. I haven't remechined any of my tool steel retainers....yet

[modok]

those look to be VSI brand shims, they have a number on the other side that is the size. letters A,B,C are 020, 030, 060 thickness, tho at the moment I don't remember what thickness is which letter.
But, you get the hardened HP .015-020 thick ones should be ok.

I think it is good to bevel and de-burr the edges of the springs so they don't EAT the head as bad.

[Dan Ruddock]

What springs and retainers are you using?

[Clatter]

[Dan Ruddock]

I can’t see them. You can always sink the valves a little if you need to. Dan

[Clatter]

Plugging away at this some more..

These are some sweet parts here no doubt.
Looking at how those dual springs chafe against each other,
And the shiny edges they get on them when run...

I have some thin (.015) shims on order.
We'll hope that moving to Comp Cams version vs. VSI gets me hardened material for the shims at that thickness (thinness? ).


Also,

Hope springs eternal that my measurement of installed height is flawed.
With the usual clearance to bind being .060 or so,
A few thou either way doesn't normally make too much difference.

Perhaps I'm not pushing the retainers clear 'home' against the retainer/keeper wedge?
Maybe we'll get some more room with a valve spring mic.
Going to be trying this cheap one..
https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/80535/10002/-1


How sweet is this?
Using a genuine Porsche swivel foot clears the retainers easily through their travel.
Looks like we won't have to run the lash cap?

Unfortunately, my intake rockers are lifting over 1.3.
Intake lift is measuring .528 on the highest one.
(Supposed to be .507 at a true 1.3).

The exhausts are lifting quite a bit less than 1.3, which I always find with type 4s. BTW.
It just seems to be a result of having that 'angled' rocker on the exhausts..


Just for a lark, i broke out a set of Web duals.

While their fully-bound measurement was about .040 smaller than the beehives,
The retainers weren't as 'deep', so gave an even smaller installed height.
Still wouldn't work with my combo.
So there goes that theory..

Who ever guessed that an 86b wouldn't even work with duals...

Hard to believe that this is an application that requires longer valves..

And it's just SO close.
if i had to get away with, say, .040 clearance to bind on just a couple of valves, i'd be tempted to do it.

Another thing is that i'm just using a light checking spring at this point.
Bet you that with these things fully loaded,
We'd find the installed height growing from pressure on the keepers,
And the pushrods compressing at full lift,
Things like that giving more room..

Plus. like was said, the valve job is suspect.
New (stock ) valves with a light first cut on them sitting pretty 'proud'..

I'm just a silly boy trying these things out,
But,
If i can get these things sussed out to work with a thin shim.
It seems to actually be the perfect application here.


We'll keep you posted.
I have a couple of other sets of heads to dig out and get an installed measurement,
So we can get a better idea of what to expect.
_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[Wreck]

If you haven't already done it , also check the clearance to the top of the guide . you may have to machine a bit off the guide .

[Dan Ruddock]

Yes, judging by where the intake valve is contacting the seat that is where most of the problem is. Did you get and read my instruction sheet? It has a description on how to cut the seats so that it all will fit and will also increase port flow. You want the intake valve to seat all the way out to the edge of the valve. Depending on your app you might also want to change the intake seat from 30 to 45 degrees.

You also may have a problem with that installed height mic with my retainers as I had a hard time getting the keepers in with it (would not collapse enough). I found a narrow (1/4" wide) metric ruler worked best as it was easier to read than a inch ruler. 1.700" = 43.2mm.

I highly recommend having the valve job redone which if done right will solve the problem along with .015 shims. Unless these springs will be used in a racing app I would not recommend .060" to bind. 1.700" installed should be your target.

Also the keepers will sink into the retainer more once they fully seat, you can take a brass drift and small hammer to fully seat them. Did you use the supplied keepers? The ones I use along with the ground sides give the most room.

Will be hard to get a feeler gauge in there to adjust the valves. Loose zero would work if your going to run chromoly's. The weight of lash caps is insignificant. Cut more off the rockers and screw the adjusters in deeper and run lash caps.

Both the 86b and the 163 have very close to the same .385" cam lift.

I can do the valve job for you to fix it for a reasonable cost.

As my instruction sheet says, it is a tight squeeze to get it all to fit. Got the ruler from here off the depth gauge.

https://www.harborfreight.com/6-piece-technical-measuring-set-94447.html

Dan

[modok]

Is that a 30 degree seat?
I'd at least change to 37.5 at least, if not 45

30 degree seats are for LOW lift

[Dan Ruddock]