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Rot inside of beetle spine found when stripping pan combat plan?
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Jackrobbo
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:17 pm    Post subject: Rot inside of beetle spine found when stripping pan combat plan? Reply with quote

Stripping of the pan has commenced for new pan halves and was going to completely shot blast and paint with some form of corrosion resistant primer then just black tough chassis paint.

When I removed the front beam however I was quick to notice the shift rod removal cover was missing and I guess has been for some time this has led to now dried damp and rot inside the tunnel/spine.

Whatís the best way to combat this for anyone whoís found this before. My thoughts so far. Fill with diesel? Cut off bottom shot blast it all out and reweld. Or just fill with waxoyl and pretend itís ok haha.
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TDCTDI
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Rot inside of beetle spine found when stripping pan combat plan? Reply with quote

Vacuum it out, scrape what you can, vacuum it out again, tip the pan nose down a few degrees, flush with water & let it dry. Cap the front, pour in 1-2 quarts of Ospho, raise front to distribute Ospho to rear of transmission supports & tilt side to side, drain & let dry. Then use Eastwoods inside framerail treatment or similar product inside the tunnel.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Rot inside of beetle spine found when stripping pan combat plan? Reply with quote

We have had good luck with Bill Hirsch miracle paint to slosh around in there .
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Jackrobbo
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Rot inside of beetle spine found when stripping pan combat plan? Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Rot inside of beetle spine found when stripping pan combat plan? Reply with quote

I would first take a long flexible wire brush (think something like gun cleaning or dryer vent cleaning) and brush away the loose stuff and vacuum it up.

I would be tempted to do the phospo acid pour inside and shake the pan around and let it dry. You can get that stuff cheap at Lowe's.

If that does not work this may-it comes with a long 2' spray tube:
https://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-internal-frame-coating-14oz-aerosol.html
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viiking
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Rot inside of beetle spine found when stripping pan combat plan? Reply with quote

I had this exact same problem with my 68 tunnel. It looked pretty ordinary when looking inside.

I was fortunate that as I was planning to replace both floor pans I had both ends of the tunnel on two engine stands so I could rotate the tunnel more easily, but you can do it without these, although you have to man-handle it a bit more.

Here's what I did. Remember to take the relevant safety precautions, most importantly eye protection.

1. Remove as much crud as you can by vacuuming.

2. Poke a piece of broom handle or ideally a piece of plastic conduit inside the tunnel and just scrape around. You can tape some sort of scratching device to it to help loosen the really loose stuff. You'll be surprised at how much comes out. Then re-vacuum.

3. Hose out everything and leave to dry or force to dry using a hot air gun. Bit of a problem I know right now in some parts of North America at the moment, but in very hot Australia even in winter it's not an issue.

4. You then need to make a decision on how much mess you want to make. Either close off all of the holes on the tunnel or leave them open and suffer the leaks. You will know where most of the holes are when you wash out the tunnel in (3) above. You can get quite inventive with closing everything off. You can glue/mastic/silicone off the small holes, like seat belt holes if you have them, use plastic sheet and seal off say the gear lever entry, handbrake entry and rear inspection hole entry etc. You will also find that an old schrader tubeless valve stem fits perfectly in the drain hole on the bottom of the tunnel. Well it did in mine.
Remember most of the rust will be at the bottom of the tunnel and there aren't too many openings to deal with at the bottom.

Note: There are holes at the front body mounting points inside the Napoleon's Hat right at the outside extremities. I left these open so I could gauge that the cleaning solutions were getting right out to the outside of the frame and hence doing the job to remove the rust where it hides between two closely fitting surfaces.

5. Put down some tarps/plastic sheets if you want to protect the floor/driveway. Find a dozen clean small tins or plastic jars to collect drips. There will be some, and potentially more if you have holes in the tunnel. But you will have noticed this in washing out with water.

6. Pour in phosphoric acid, Ortho or proprietary rust converter or whatever acid meets your fancy. (You can use stronger acids and they will work much faster but are tricky to use and need to be neutralised with the difficulty of disposing of the wastes).

You need to make sure that all of the surfaces can be kept wet long enough to make the reaction work. It doesn't have to be totally flooded but as long as it remains wet it will work. Leave it in as long as you can depending on the level of rust. I left mine in for 24 hours for the bottom (only because it was convenient) and only a few hours for the sides and top. See photos below.

At this stage when you pour in the acid, you will inevitably get leaks. Use the tins to catch these and return them into the tunnel and repeat or if the leak is really bad, you have to seal it. Try Blu Tack, plasticine or even chewing gum on a wet surface. Otherwise stop and seal.

Make sure all surfaces get covered. Make sure you add enough. I was lucky on my stands, I could angle to and fro to make sure everything was wet. But if you add enough in, it will find its own level. Of course you can use gravity to make sure one end or the other or side to side is covered.

7. After the appropriate time drain out all of the acid solution and let dry. You should see the rusty areas have cleaned up. If not, you have to repeat the process. In most cases you can just reuse the acid solution as it does not get used up that quickly.

8. Repeat for each side, by rotating the tunnel 90 degrees. Remember the leak potential is higher, but also the time you have to leave it to react is usually less.

9. Some people leave the resultant white powdery phosphate coating on and just paint, but I chose to wash it off with water. You WILL get flash rusting with this, but if you use a Bill Hirsch, POR15, Master Series or other anti-rust paint, just follow their directions re using the metal prep type pre-cleaners. (AFAIK these are all only dilute phosphoric acid anyway).

10. Inspect your handiwork and repeat if necessary. Make sure it is dry especially in the crevices and do not wait long between treating and painting.

11. Paint with your desired anti-rust paint system. I think given the amount of rust that had accumulated in 50 years on a relatively unpainted surface, that I didn't think I needed to put on a super expensive rust encapsulating paint. Partly because of the excessive cost and partly due to the generally high viscosity of the paint and the lack of access to all parts of the tunnel. This is a decision you have to make.

So I went and bought some epoxy anti-rust paint from my home store and repeated the process from above. I've used this before for things and it gets rock hard after a few months.

Assuming you have most of the holes covered, I poured in a litre/quart of paint at a time and just rotated the tunnel (or if you don't have this, move the tunnel around side to side, back to front etc. I'm sure you get the picture).

If you want to, you can dilute the paint with the appropriate thinner. I didn't have to, so just used it neat and only one coat.

This got everything covered well with paint and with a pretty good thickness. (Remember that a thick coat might take some time to dry). My tell tale holes at the Napoleon Hat told me when the paint had got to each of the edges and sometimes I'd get some paint oozing out between the tunnel halves where the pan attaches. I welded my pans on after this and didn't seem to have any problems with this, but I'm sure some of the paint would have burned off here at the flange. But there was probably never any here in the first place. If you can wait until new pans are in before painting, then it is probably "safer".

When I was finished I had a nice even coat of paint on all surfaces. If not just repeat the dose or if it is accessible, just use a brush.

I did not have any problems with paint affecting any internals, although I needed to replace the shifter busing so I had removed it previously. I ran a tap through any threaded holes to get rid of the paint.

Here are two photos of the before rust treatment and after rust treatment. It was pretty clean and rust free. The white powder was the zinc phosphate coating that had formed in some areas which I decided to flush out.

Unfortunately I can't seem to find my after painting photo, but will endeavour to post this up when I can.
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viiking
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Rot inside of beetle spine found when stripping pan combat plan? Reply with quote

As far as the next step, I will add some lanolin (sheep fat) to the tunnel. (Only because I have a source for this in bulk/free) This will find all of the crevices and seal it off.

Of course waxoyl or other treatments will work as well but not smell as nice. Laughing
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Rot inside of beetle spine found when stripping pan combat plan? Reply with quote

Wow, Viking, Your post gets a nomination for the "Reply of the Year" award! I hope you are around the next time I have a frame question to post. Well done!
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viiking
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Rot inside of beetle spine found when stripping pan combat plan? Reply with quote

I owe it to the Samba community. Thought I could give something back to those that have helped me in the past when I've gone searching.

Here's where I'm now at, pictured on the car's 50th Birthday. It was my father's since new.

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VW_Jimbo Premium Member
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Rot inside of beetle spine found when stripping pan combat plan? Reply with quote

That looks great!!! I love seeing a pan all painted with new rubber grommets!

Nice job!
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viiking
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Rot inside of beetle spine found when stripping pan combat plan? Reply with quote

Thanks VW_Jimbo. That's a great compliment coming from someone with your standing in the Samba community.

Yes every part has been cleaned or replaced. New rubber grommets in pan and tunnel, new ATE master and brake cylinders, brake lines and hoses, ball joints, overhauled the steering box, split and renewed all rubbers in disk calipers and caliper halves, new axle seals and axle boots. All German replacements where possible.

Even painted the pans the correct "original" grey black instead of the black everyone seems to do their pans in. The front and rear suspension parts are black, the pan grey-black. That's how it came. I'm anal about getting it back to the way it really was.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Rot inside of beetle spine found when stripping pan combat plan? Reply with quote

viiking wrote:
Thanks VW_Jimbo. That's a great compliment coming from someone with your standing in the Samba community.

Yes every part has been cleaned or replaced. New rubber grommets in pan and tunnel, new ATE master and brake cylinders, brake lines and hoses, ball joints, overhauled the steering box, split and renewed all rubbers in disk calipers and caliper halves, new axle seals and axle boots. All German replacements where possible.

Even painted the pans the correct "original" grey black instead of the black everyone seems to do their pans in. The front and rear suspension parts are black, the pan grey-black. That's how it came. I'm anal about getting it back to the way it really was.


Looking damn good! Keep going, you have my attention!
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Jackrobbo
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Rot inside of beetle spine found when stripping pan combat plan? Reply with quote

Wow ! Thanks Viking thatís an exceptional reply and so much detail and it clearly worked ! Definitely a great method as seen. The pan looks fantastic lovely colour I thought they were back from all of the previous posts Iíve seen.

I wonder if there is a rolling pan thread somewhere with everyoneís finished and started pans?

I could remove the passenger pan half. Iím not against that, just in my mind I was thinking if it shotblasts up clean enough and I check the thickness and isnít too bad then heck, not worth the time money and effort making a repro fit?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:11 am    Post subject: Re: Rot inside of beetle spine found when stripping pan combat plan? Reply with quote

I would certainly try and keep as much of the original metal as possible.

If after blasting it is a little thin in spots or holed, I know that painting the pans themselves in POR15, Master Series or KBS products which are all polyurethane encapsulating paints will fill in any holes. In fact as you probably know, these companies offer fuel tank repair systems which effectively fill in any small holes as good as welding. Their rust paint will do the same for small holes and you can always add some reinforcement if the holes are a little too large.

Of course if you have some pinholes or holes that can be easily repaired and you can weld, then do that.

However when replacing any other parts of the pan, try to get the best you can and don't go cheap particularly with the thin ones. I purchased the grey Wolfsburg West pans imported to Australia and they fit perfectly and are as good as the originals. The costs were horrendous here at around USD 600-700 a pair, but made up for it by not having to play around and make them fit.

If you go this way try and keep your original seat tracks by removing and re-welding if necessary. The WW ones whilst very good are just a little bit different to the originals. I'm just anal.

Re the pan colour, the colour under the pan gasket and various parts were grey black. I have had this argument with people before that black is the only colour, but mine wasn't. Yours might have been black but paint it whatever colour you like. It was a pain for me because I had to paint the new pans with KBS paint, then a tie coat and then the grey black for correctness. It still has the encapsulating paint, so the pans will outlast me.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:16 am    Post subject: Re: Rot inside of beetle spine found when stripping pan combat plan? Reply with quote

Pretty much the answer I was looking for.. thanks a lot for the information think mine will just be black or possibly body colour..
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:13 am    Post subject: Re: Rot inside of beetle spine found when stripping pan combat plan? Reply with quote

Jackrobbo wrote:
I wonder if there is a rolling pan thread somewhere with everyoneís finished and started pans?



https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=214075&highlight=pan
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:00 am    Post subject: Re: Rot inside of beetle spine found when stripping pan combat plan? Reply with quote

viiking wrote:
The WW ones whilst very good are just a little bit different to the originals.

Aha, you *are* Australian indeed. "Whilst" is still considered a proper word but has been completely abandoned by Americans and largely abandoned by Brits leaving the Australians as perhaps the only users. But I'm American and really like the word. (sorry for the diversion - back to the topic of tunnels and pans) Anxious
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viiking
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Rot inside of beetle spine found when stripping pan combat plan? Reply with quote

Tom K. wrote:
viiking wrote:
The WW ones whilst very good are just a little bit different to the originals.

Aha, you *are* Australian indeed. "Whilst" is still considered a proper word but has been completely abandoned by Americans and largely abandoned by Brits leaving the Australians as perhaps the only users. But I'm American and really like the word. (sorry for the diversion - back to the topic of tunnels and pans) Anxious


Nah! I'm a 66 year old "bloke" who was schooled in a much more British-English era here in Australia, where it was considered more upper class to sound like a Pom than an Aussie. (Chip on the shoulder syndrome). Even the Queen's pronunciation has become more decidedly upper-middle class than when she was first crowned.

The younger generations here have become more American in their usage, rely on spell-check, want to spell colour - color, tyres - tires, pronounce Alu-min-i-um as Al-lu-min-um all because no-one remembers to change Bill Gates' Windows spell check from the default US English and watch US TV. No-one now knows how to use a gerund and people look at me stupidly when I say "dah-ta" not "day-ta".

I guess that is the beauty of changing language. Perambulator became pram became child carrier.

Agree. A little diversion we had. To the subject again back!
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