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ckissick Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2006 Posts: 498 Location: Bay Area
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:27 pm Post subject: Pebble Beach Concours |
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I've entered my '50 in the Hillsborough and Stanford concours, and the people with their multi-million classics loved my car. A high percentage of them said their first car was a beetle. You know what I'm talking about. But what about Pebble Beach? Is there any possibility they would accept a split window beetle? I know there has been a Heb and perhaps a Rometsch, etc. But I couldn't find any evidence that a "regular" beetle has ever been there. Is it worth my time to apply for 2020? (It's too late for 2019, plus I'd like to do a few repairs.) _________________ Charlie
1950 Beetle
1983 Westfalia
1989 syncro Tristar
1966 Porsche 912
1989 Beck Spyder
2007 GTI Fahrenheit |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33883 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: Pebble Beach Concours |
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Just based on general listening, and no knowledge of Pebble Beach policies, I think the perception is that since they made so many of these cars, they aren't so rare or unusual that they deserve a spot at PB. No matter how few remain in original or 100% restored condition... the perception persists.
One of the criteria seems to be what the "meaning" of the car was/is. Did it change industry? Was it a revolution in some form of design or engineering? While the early VW fits some of these points, a particular car or year (if not earlier) probably does not.
Or at least that's what I glean from the Carini series (CCC). |
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John cilia Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2016 Posts: 140 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:14 am Post subject: Re: Pebble Beach Concours |
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I have been invited to 3 Concours de elegance events 3 years in a row with 2 first place wins. The last win was with my 1952 crotch cooler 11 G model. The event is the Cobble Beach Concourse de elegance show. The judges are the same ones from Pebble beach. It is the largest, most prestigious event in Canada.
Many of the cars that show up are American owned and they have told me how much they enjoy coming to this event.
The biggest problem with having VW beetles in a show like this is very simple.
How pissed off would you be if you restored a 356 Porsche for 400 k and you lost to a Beetle which has a lot less invested.
At these events the 356 is not really competing against the Beetle. Both cars are being judged as " is this the best example that this model can be ?" Even though they might be put into the same class of competition.
So Cobble got around this mine field by having a VW class on its own. Which is another problem. It's difficult to find factory stock restored cars to fill a class.
I hope this helps.
_________________ Currently restoring a 1953 11g in metallic blue.
The most important thing on a Tombstone is the Dash between the 2 dates. |
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mikeandkirsti Samba Member
Joined: June 16, 2009 Posts: 284 Location: EU
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Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:42 pm Post subject: Re: Pebble Beach Concours |
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Very nice ragtop. The model designation is 12G however for the mid 1951 to 1953 ragtops. You should get the rear springs adjusted lower, the rear end sits way too high up. It is an easy fix. |
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John cilia Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2016 Posts: 140 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:16 am Post subject: Re: Pebble Beach Concours |
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Already done :^) _________________ Currently restoring a 1953 11g in metallic blue.
The most important thing on a Tombstone is the Dash between the 2 dates. |
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Wiggy Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2003 Posts: 6601 Location: Downingtown, PA
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:50 am Post subject: Re: Pebble Beach Concours |
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John cilia wrote: |
Already done :^) |
And fix the placement of the front bumper guards. They should be on the outside holes not the inside. _________________ Kevin "Wiggy"
My 58 Ghia Vert
My 51 Split 11G
My 57 Deluxe
My 56 Oval |
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John cilia Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2016 Posts: 140 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:00 am Post subject: Re: Pebble Beach Concours |
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Mom warned me about days like this. _________________ Currently restoring a 1953 11g in metallic blue.
The most important thing on a Tombstone is the Dash between the 2 dates. |
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Jacks Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2006 Posts: 2344 Location: San Clemente, Ca.
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:21 am Post subject: Re: Pebble Beach Concours |
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ckissick wrote: |
But what about Pebble Beach? Is there any possibility they would accept a split window beetle? |
Well, since Pebble Beach is the oldest such show in the US (est. 1950), they traditionally adhere to the classical interpretation of the term “concours d’elegance”.
From Wikipedia: “Concours d'Elegance (French: concours d'élégance) is a term of French origin that means a "competition of elegance" and refers to an event where prestigious vehicles are displayed and judged”.
This pretty much precludes inclusion of “economy cars” such as the VW Beetle, as elegance was never the priority of the manufacturer. With that being said, inroads have been made in recent years with some “hot rods” & “woodies” being invited to attend. Couldn’t hurt to ask, I suppose. Good luck! _________________ Jack Staggs
Actual name |
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sled Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2005 Posts: 6171
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:28 am Post subject: Re: Pebble Beach Concours |
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John cilia wrote: |
Mom warned me about days like this. |
well, you say you've won first place at a concours, then you should expect people to point out incorrect details on your car so you can improve it. Don't we all want to improve our cars?
details like mentioned above would prevent your car from winning at many events, as long as the judges know what they're even looking at. _________________ drive your split. |
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Wiggy Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2003 Posts: 6601 Location: Downingtown, PA
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:33 am Post subject: Re: Pebble Beach Concours |
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sled wrote: |
John cilia wrote: |
Mom warned me about days like this. |
well, you say you've won first place at a concours, then you should expect people to point out incorrect details on your car so you can improve it. Don't we all want to improve our cars?
details like mentioned above would prevent your car from winning at many events, as long as the judges know what they're even looking at. |
yup. _________________ Kevin "Wiggy"
My 58 Ghia Vert
My 51 Split 11G
My 57 Deluxe
My 56 Oval |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33883 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:51 am Post subject: Re: Pebble Beach Concours |
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sled wrote: |
John cilia wrote: |
Mom warned me about days like this. |
well, you say you've won first place at a concours, then you should expect people to point out incorrect details on your car so you can improve it. Don't we all want to improve our cars?
details like mentioned above would prevent your car from winning at many events, as long as the judges know what they're even looking at. |
I think he was making a joke... I don't read offense, just amusement.
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John cilia Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2016 Posts: 140 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: Pebble Beach Concours |
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KTPhil your right. The world needs an enima, some people have forgotten how too smile 😃 _________________ Currently restoring a 1953 11g in metallic blue.
The most important thing on a Tombstone is the Dash between the 2 dates. |
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my56samba Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2017 Posts: 100 Location: victoria b.c.
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:05 pm Post subject: Re: Pebble Beach Concours |
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In the beetle Type 1 model numbers in the technical section on the Samba. models #'s show from 1 May 1950 through 4 April 1954 a Deluxe sunroof is listed as an 11G or a 11H if right hand drive. Johns car looks to be an 11G left hand drive. I have never heard of a 12G does anyone have documentation of a 12G designation? |
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John cilia Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2016 Posts: 140 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:16 pm Post subject: Re: Pebble Beach Concours |
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Correct, my birth certificate for car says 11 G. _________________ Currently restoring a 1953 11g in metallic blue.
The most important thing on a Tombstone is the Dash between the 2 dates. |
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Grant Reiling Samba Slow-Change Artist
Joined: November 28, 2003 Posts: 491 Location: behind the wheel
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: Pebble Beach Concours |
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my56samba wrote: |
In the beetle Type 1 model numbers in the technical section on the Samba. models #'s show from 1 May 1950 through 4 April 1954 a Deluxe sunroof is listed as an 11G or a 11H if right hand drive. Johns car looks to be an 11G left hand drive. I have never heard of a 12G does anyone have documentation of a 12G designation? |
This very issue is one I've been puzzled by as well; as it happens, I'm currently restoring my March 14, 1952 Deluxe LHD Sunroof and have been utterly stumped by this seeming conundrum. My Birth Certificate lists it as a "Type 11G"...yet the car's ID plate reads "10/12G"
The BC
I have no VW documentation that corroborates this apparent mystery; and wonder if anyone out in SambaLand happens to have more answers (for which I'm entirely grateful).
Happy VW-ing!
Grant _________________ 1952 Azure Blue 12G (LHD Deluxe 3-fold sunroof Sedan).
"What you really know is possible in your heart is possible.
We make it possible by our will.
What we imagine in our minds becomes our world. That’s just one of many things I have learned from water."
Misaru Emoto
The Hidden Messages in Water |
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Grant Reiling Samba Slow-Change Artist
Joined: November 28, 2003 Posts: 491 Location: behind the wheel
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Pebble Beach Concours |
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Grant Reiling wrote: |
my56samba wrote: |
In the beetle Type 1 model numbers in the technical section on the Samba. models #'s show from 1 May 1950 through 4 April 1954 a Deluxe sunroof is listed as an 11G or a 11H if right hand drive. Johns car looks to be an 11G left hand drive. I have never heard of a 12G does anyone have documentation of a 12G designation? |
This very issue is one I've been puzzled by as well; as it happens, I'm currently restoring my March 14, 1952 Deluxe LHD Sunroof and have been utterly stumped by this seeming conundrum. My Birth Certificate lists it as a "Type 11G"...yet the car's ID plate reads "10/12G"
The BC
I have no VW documentation that corroborates this apparent mystery; and wonder if anyone out in SambaLand happens to have more answers (for which I'm entirely grateful).
Happy VW-ing!
Grant |
[quote="mikeandkirsti"]Very nice ragtop. The model designation is 12G however for the mid 1951 to 1953 ragtops.
So, mikeandkirsti, as you stated with such certainty the 12G designation as being correct for '51-'53 sunroof cars; what information do you draw this conclusion from? Is there some original VW publication, technical bulletin or other to refer to...(other than just thin air)?
Whatever substantiating evidence you might share would once and for all put this anomaly to bed (+ be greatly appreciated).
TIA
GRR
...P.S. note that the BC in question (ca. 2002) - still lists the OG engine number. _________________ 1952 Azure Blue 12G (LHD Deluxe 3-fold sunroof Sedan).
"What you really know is possible in your heart is possible.
We make it possible by our will.
What we imagine in our minds becomes our world. That’s just one of many things I have learned from water."
Misaru Emoto
The Hidden Messages in Water |
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my56samba Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2017 Posts: 100 Location: victoria b.c.
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Pebble Beach Concours |
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There is an older Split-Window topic thread on here titled 10/12G vs 11G that will mix you up even more with a Nov 50 10/11G a Dec 50 10/12G and a Zwitter claiming either a 1/11 or 1/13 model # someone stated a possibility of the 11 or 12 being a domestic or export market thing, With the 11G model only starting on May 1 1950 this would seem like a possibility otherwise 11G would have only been used for 7 months and I have heard of many people calling cars up to 54's 11G's many of them very knowledgable like Bob Sowerby (53 oval ) on here |
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Grant Reiling Samba Slow-Change Artist
Joined: November 28, 2003 Posts: 491 Location: behind the wheel
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: Pebble Beach Concours |
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my56samba wrote: |
There is an older Split-Window topic thread on here titled 10/12G vs 11G that will mix you up even more with a Nov 50 10/11G a Dec 50 10/12G and a Zwitter claiming either a 1/11 or 1/13 model # someone stated a possibility of the 11 or 12 being a domestic or export market thing, With the 11G model only starting on May 1 1950 this would seem like a possibility otherwise 11G would have only been used for 7 months and I have heard of many people calling cars up to 54's 11G's many of them very knowledgable like Bob Sowerby (53 oval ) on here |
Thanks for this update my56samba, From the BC (delivered to Rottger/Hagen)...and subsequent 40yrs worth of ownership history on the car - to its retrieval from a UK scrapyard; it's safe to say it was a German market car from Day one and since I've got more faith in the veracity of the stamped-metal ID plate (10/12G) than the BC as there've been numerous examples of those containing inaccuracies over the years...
Thus, I'm going with the 12G designation unless factually disproven.
Kelley Park 2019 will be its initial public showing; > I can hardly wait. _________________ 1952 Azure Blue 12G (LHD Deluxe 3-fold sunroof Sedan).
"What you really know is possible in your heart is possible.
We make it possible by our will.
What we imagine in our minds becomes our world. That’s just one of many things I have learned from water."
Misaru Emoto
The Hidden Messages in Water |
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ZENVWDRIVER Samba Member
Joined: November 07, 2008 Posts: 3340 Location: N.E. Oklahoma
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: Pebble Beach Concours |
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my56samba wrote: |
There is an older Split-Window topic thread on here titled 10/12G vs 11G that will mix you up even more with a Nov 50 10/11G a Dec 50 10/12G and a Zwitter claiming either a 1/11 or 1/13 model # someone stated a possibility of the 11 or 12 being a domestic or export market thing, With the 11G model only starting on May 1 1950 this would seem like a possibility otherwise 11G would have only been used for 7 months and I have heard of many people calling cars up to 54's 11G's many of them very knowledgable like Bob Sowerby (53 oval ) on here |
... I think in 1954 the 3 fold, became a 113. that's just officially, on paper - who cares 'bout all that stuff? I certainly don't - to me all 3 folds are 11G-like. Your '50 and my old 1950 11G are/were very interesting and rare-enough.
Rare is a funny word. Can mean different things, to different people - when I had my 1950 11G, I entered many a concourse, without hesitation. i suggest, you do the same - you'll definitely have your supporters and your naysayers - ha, ha - which camp will you welcome in?
I learned that there are so few really rare cars - A friend had, 1909 Carter Car - were all hand built - all nine of 'em. Today, most parts have to be hand made - they might be at the top'a the rare list, right down to a 1991 Honda CRX-HF, coming in at around 2000 made. Two thousand of the over 100,000 CRXs made, deems it rare enough, for me... maybe not to another. All that means is there are different opinions, which does not change a darn thing... no room in my life for naysayers, only those whom accept almost-everything
i met a court judge recently, who said, she was impartial - man, do i like that... impartial is key.
... my definition of rare is whatever rare means to the beholder. - definitely more than one way to view everything.... you think, it's rare - it's rare, period. _________________ 5/50, pastel green 11G - SOLD
8/50, gray 11A Beetle
6/52, pastel green 11C - SOLD
11/4/52, black Zwitter - SOLD to my little bro.
1954 Porsche, pre A, with VW 36 horse- SOLD
1/54, black 11C Beetle - TRADED
2/55 Iceland green Beetle, on a 1965 pan
3/55 113 Beetle, stratos silver
1955 Messerschmitt KR175 - SOLD, sadly
1960 single cab
1962 SO33, with SO 42 interior
9/63 Pacific blue, Ghia
'87 Toyota MR2
'02 WestFORDia E-150, GAVE TO OUR SON
All super-heroes, wear a MASK |
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Grant Reiling Samba Slow-Change Artist
Joined: November 28, 2003 Posts: 491 Location: behind the wheel
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Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:56 am Post subject: Re: Pebble Beach Concours |
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ZENVWDRIVER wrote: |
my56samba wrote: |
There is an older Split-Window topic thread on here titled 10/12G vs 11G that will mix you up even more with a Nov 50 10/11G a Dec 50 10/12G and a Zwitter claiming either a 1/11 or 1/13 model # someone stated a possibility of the 11 or 12 being a domestic or export market thing, With the 11G model only starting on May 1 1950 this would seem like a possibility otherwise 11G would have only been used for 7 months and I have heard of many people calling cars up to 54's 11G's many of them very knowledgable like Bob Sowerby (53 oval ) on here |
... I think in 1954 the 3 fold, became a 113. that's just officially, on paper - who cares 'bout all that stuff? I certainly don't - to me all 3 folds are 11G-like. Your '50 and my old 1950 11G are/were very interesting and rare-enough.
Rare is a funny word. Can mean different things, to different people - when I had my 1950 11G, I entered many a concourse, without hesitation. i suggest, you do the same - you'll definitely have your supporters and your naysayers - ha, ha - which camp will you welcome in?
I learned that there are so few really rare cars - A friend had, 1909 Carter Car - were all hand built - all nine of 'em. Today, most parts have to be hand made - they might be at the top'a the rare list, right down to a 1991 Honda CRX-HF, coming in at around 2000 made. Two thousand of the over 100,000 CRXs made, deems it rare enough, for me... maybe not to another. All that means is there are different opinions, which does not change a darn thing... no room in my life for naysayers, only those whom accept almost-everything
i met a court judge recently, who said, she was impartial - man, do i like that... impartial is key.
... my definition of rare is whatever rare means to the beholder. - definitely more than one way to view everything.... you think, it's rare - it's rare, period. |
So true; all is relative, and each person's viewpoint is uniquely singular. _________________ 1952 Azure Blue 12G (LHD Deluxe 3-fold sunroof Sedan).
"What you really know is possible in your heart is possible.
We make it possible by our will.
What we imagine in our minds becomes our world. That’s just one of many things I have learned from water."
Misaru Emoto
The Hidden Messages in Water |
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