Zetec Bostig Stumbles, Sputters, Won't Run NOPE NOT SOLVED

[jyl]

Hey folks, looking for ideas on what's wrong.

1988 Westy, Zetec Bostig conversion. Had just replaced wire to fuel pump (may not be relevant), van started and ran fine, drove 8 blocks, engine started stumbling (ran at no throttle but stumbled if I pressed on gas pedal), then died. Parked it on the side of the street, took Uber to my appointment and back, now trying to figure this out. It barely starts, stumbles and sputters, and dies.

First thought was fuel. Gas gauge was just above reserve, I added 2 gallons of gas, that didn't make any difference. Then wired fuel pump direct to battery, confirmed pump is running, didn't make any difference.

Then looked at ignition wires, nothing seems amiss but it is dark (of course this stuff always happens at night) so can't really see much.

Any ideas?

I talked to the guy whose house I parked in front of, told him I have to work so might not get back to the van for a couple days, he's cool with that.
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1988 Westy, Bostig v2.0

[jyl]

I've been thinking about this. The van behaved somewhat similarly last year. Not quite the same. I replaced coil and ignition wires and all was well. So the coil is practically new.
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1988 Westy, Bostig v2.0

[JudoJeff]

Problem is either gas/electric/vacuum.

It sounds like you have gas going to the engine, BUT you might have connected the leads on the fuel pump backwards. The pump will run, but not deliver fuel. Because you made it a few miles, then stumbles, that might be it. You used up the gas in the system and aren't getting any more.

Check all the electrical connections to see if anything is loose. Pull on things, don't just look. You might have a loose wire.

Vacuum leaks are normally where the black lines connects to the input manifold. Examine the hose for any nicks or cuts.

Good luck!
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1989 Vanagon GL Westfalia Camper, Burned up on 7/31/16.
1987 Vanagon GL Westfalia Camper, Bostig & Rebuilt, sold
1986 Vanagon GL Westfalia Camper, Bostig Sold May 10, 2021
1999 Ford GTRV Westfalia camper (30% bigger Westy layout)

[SyncroButter]

Hi jyl!

Why did you replace the wire to the pump? I seem to recall some incident where the wires to the pump from the Bostig install got wrapped around your axle or something like that?

I would test that you are getting gas to the engine, both in volume and pressure. That whole system (with exception of the wire/power to the pump) remains VW all the way to the engine compartment as you know from doing the install, so diagnostics should be the same. Possible culprits there would be the usual suspects: the pump, the filter, electric to the pump.

Running at idle and stumbling/dying off idle could also be vacuum or TPS or something like that.

Since you have a snazzy OBDII engine, do you have a reader where you can look for faults etc?
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Grant
In the stable: 1986 Syncro Westfalia/Bostig, 1989 Doka Tristar, 1974 Vespa Rally 200, 1973 Vespa Primavera 125, 1963 Solex 2200, 1938 Buick Special
Gone but not forgotten: 1989 Porsche 944, 1973 Standard Beetle

[bobbyblack]

Clogged CAT
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'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch

[SyncroButter]

bobbyblack's response actually reminds me of something: on my maiden voyage with my new bostig install, I encountered a poor running condition (RPM OK but no torque, couldn't drive up a hill) and a glowing cat. Turns out on of my plug wires had backed off of the coil so that cylinder was not firing at all (and was dumping some raw fuel to my cat). Probably want to just give each of those wires a once-over to make sure it is seated well and making contact.
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Grant
In the stable: 1986 Syncro Westfalia/Bostig, 1989 Doka Tristar, 1974 Vespa Rally 200, 1973 Vespa Primavera 125, 1963 Solex 2200, 1938 Buick Special
Gone but not forgotten: 1989 Porsche 944, 1973 Standard Beetle

[jyl]

I took the day off and fixed the van.

Last night I verified it wasn't reversed fuel pump wiring, and checked that I'd connected the new fuel pump wire correctly in the ECU box. Today I planned to check for a blocked fuel filter and go from there. First, I removed the engine lid to look at the vacuum lines. I noticed a distinct fuel odor in the engine compartment. Hmm, that probably rules out blocked fuel filter <he thought>. Turned key, let fuel pump run, looked for signs of a fuel leak, found none. Hmm, if fuel is pumping enough to smell up the engine compartment, but it isn't not visibly leaking, but engine is turning over but sputtering and stumbling, that probably means unignited fuel is being dumped into the cat. <he continued thinking> The most common source of ignition problems is the coil, plug wires, and plugs. But I replaced all of those just last summer. <he paused> But they don't make parts like they used to. <he did his best grumpy old man face> And all the plugs or plug wires aren't going to go bad at once, so if it's one of those, its the coil. <he grew hopeful> Fortunately, on my bike ride home last night I stopped at O'Reillys and spent $70 for a new coil. <smug face> I set the new coil on the valve cover, transferred over plug wires and the wiring harness connector. Van started right up and ran perfectly, smooth with no stumbling or sputtering, normal power and sound - aside from a bunch of smoke from the tailpipe, presumably unburned fuel in the cat <he mused>. Drove it home, removed the old coil and bolted the new coil in place, by then the smoking had stopped.

So, I'm kind of shocked that an eight month old genuine "Motorcraft" coil would fail. But maybe it wasn't genuine (bought online) and maybe Motorcraft doesn't mean what it used to. Could I somehow be doing something to make the coil fail? <he looked puzzled>. Whatever, I'll buy an extra coil and toss it in the van, and knock wood.

Let's hope that we found it. Otherwise I'll be posting plaintively in this thread again

P. S. Yes, Grant, this is the van where the fuel pump wire got caught up in a half shaft and ripped out from the wiring harness and the fuel pump. We ran the van for a few months with the fuel pump wired directly to the battery with a switch. I learned, by the way, that when the fuel pump is switched off, the engine dies in seconds. Last weekend my son and I installed the replacement fuel wire sent by Jim and got the ECU box tidy again. This new problem happened right after we did that, but I guess sometimes correlation <> causation?
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1988 Westy, Bostig v2.0

[SyncroButter]

Glad you figured it out! Now I am wondering whether a spare coil is something I should carry with my Bostig....
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Grant
In the stable: 1986 Syncro Westfalia/Bostig, 1989 Doka Tristar, 1974 Vespa Rally 200, 1973 Vespa Primavera 125, 1963 Solex 2200, 1938 Buick Special
Gone but not forgotten: 1989 Porsche 944, 1973 Standard Beetle

[John Sullivan]

I had a very similar problem with my bostig zetec. It died in Dewey Beach Delaware right on the road. But it had been acting up, sputtering and missing when I hit bumps for a while. I had changed fuel filter, fuel pump finally I replaced the coil pack and all seemed well. A couple of month later it started acting up again.
So in my driveway, i started moving things. I came to the harness and wires into the coil the 3 wire connector which when I lifted it, it misfired. I did it and it missed every time I moved that cable. I turned off the engine and pulled on each of the wires going to the connector and one came right out. Oh man. I looked at the connector and the crimp on that wire had missed the copper. I got a new pin from Ford, about $2. I removed and crimped wire and reinstalled in connector. No problems since. It was a bad pin crimp the whole time. I chased this for more than a year.

[jyl]

...and now I'm on the roadside waiting for a tow truck.

Driving to airport to pick up my dad. Van is driving fine. Then stumbles once. A block later, dies. By now I'm ready for trouble so I'm in the right lane and coast into a handy parking area. Cranks, no start.

Go under the van. Uh oh. Fuel line from tank to pump is torn and leaking. Guess I shouldn't have rotated the pump 90 degrees last night to make the terminals easier to reach. You'd think that wouldn't be a problem but it's old line. I get duct tape, wrap up the line. No help, crank nostart. I can't hear the pump running, though it is kind of noisy at this location.

Call my dad and tell him to take a cab to my house. Check wires are securely on terminals. Have gas per gauge. Its raining.

There is an autoparts store a mile away. Don't feel like walking there and back, and maybe finding out it isn't the pump. Eff it, pull out the AAA card. It is so much nicer to work on cars in one's own driveway.

Could all this crap really be happening randomly but together? Torn line somehow causes ancient pump to give up the ghost?

So, easiest thing to do will be to go to an autoparts store tomorrow (not on foot) and pick up a fuel pump plus new line and clamps, replace that stuff, and cross fingers. I assume thete's no compelling reason to get a genuine VW pump?

My fuel tank has been having a leak when filled all the way up. As long as I don't fill all the way, it's fine. If I fill all the way, gas leaks from the filler area. I've figured that someday I'll need to drop the tank. Maybe it's time to do that too.
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1988 Westy, Bostig v2.0

[jyl]

[JudoJeff]

Glad you found problems.

I carry spare fuel pump, coil, plug wires, and ignition switch.
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________________________________________
1989 Vanagon GL Westfalia Camper, Burned up on 7/31/16.
1987 Vanagon GL Westfalia Camper, Bostig & Rebuilt, sold
1986 Vanagon GL Westfalia Camper, Bostig Sold May 10, 2021
1999 Ford GTRV Westfalia camper (30% bigger Westy layout)

[Microbusdeluxe]

Carry a spare coil. I'm convinced hat the excessive engine compartment temps fry coils. Had it happen to me.
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'69 Squareback RIP
'65 21 window deluxe sold before the price spike, damn it.
'70 rhd bay now a taxi in South Sudan
'81 Westy sold
'89 hightop Westy Joker syncro 16" now with Bostig!

[jyl]

I'm going to indulge in a mini-rant about local autoparts store prices.

My local O'Reilly had the fuel pump for $191 and not in stock at my nearest store. NAPA for $184 and it'd have to be brought from their warehouse. Vancafe has it for $60.

I try really hard to support local businesses. But being charged 3X more to shop locally isn't sitting right with me. This pump probably costs the big chains $20 or less.

So, I'm supporting a Vanagon community vendor who isn't local and that's okay with me too.
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1988 Westy, Bostig v2.0

[jyl]

[DanHoug]

[jyl]

Maybe I'm a cheapskate. I figure that I'd rather have a generic + carry a spare, than a genuine, for the same price. That assumes the driver is capable of roadside repairs of course.
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1988 Westy, Bostig v2.0

[Captjon1959]

I had a similar problem that ended up being a sticking fuel injector. It stuck open and flooded the cylinder. You can ping them with a 9 volt battery.
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1984 Westfalia Wolfsburg Edition
Former 1.9 L now Bostig Ford Zetec

[danfromsyr]

as an FYI, you do NOT have to drop the tank to service the fuel filler grommet/seal, in fact the only thing you need to drop the tank for is the fuel sender seal and if you break/damage the crossover pipe nipples..

you can R&R the filler gasket thru the frame hole.
less than a 1hour task..

[jyl]

Well, I changed the thread title to NOPE NOT SOLVED.

When we last saw our intrepid adventurers, the father had ordered a new fuel pump and 12 mm fuel hose from Vancafe and the son had installed it. Turn key, van starts right up. Big smiles. High fives. Another teenaged boy, flush with confidence and appreciation of these sturdy German shuttlecraft. Another smug father, basking in the glow of his children's admiration (plural, because son called his sister at college to tell her about the triumph).

So the van sat in the driveway for a week, as we had Inclement Weather (read: predicted snow). Once or twice I snuck out and started it, just to make sure. The van always started up and idled normally, for as much as five minutes at a time.

After the non-snow did its non-thing, and we all recovered from our depression about being in Portland, the only PacNW city that didn't get white stuff - fer chrissakes, even Seattle got snow! - my son expressed a need to drive his van the next day. Not entirely trusting, that night I started up the van and proceeded to do a test drive around the block.

I got three car lengths from my driveway when the dreaded stumble, sputter, silence. I was able to restart it once or twice but each time it sputtered out. There I was, 45 feet from my house but with no helper to push. So I did what we've all had to do: put it in reverse and cranked the starter enough to get some reverse motion, then coasted to the curb.

The van sat for another week as I struggled with another bout of despair, torpor and inadequacy. What sort of father was I anyway? How much more disappointment could I inflict on my boy, before he swore off Vanagons and became a Toyota driver? Would it ever stop raining?

Finally I roused myself and did some checking.

Fuel in tank? Check (added some from a can).

Engine cranks? Sure, it cranks merrily with no hint of starting.

Fuel delivery to engine? I disconnected the fuel line from the rail and stuck the end in a glass jar, went forward and turned the key to "run" then back to "off", checked the jar. 2 oz of fuel delivered in a couple of seconds. Did it again. Another 2 oz of fuel. Now, what I don't know is if fuel will continues to pump as long as the key is turned, or if I am getting just an initial spurt of fuel then it stops. Why the latter might be, I dunno - something weird about how the fuel pump wire got reconnected in the ECU box? I couldn't check because I didn't have a helper, and the only jar that will fit there is small...

I reconnected the fuel line, then tried turning the key to "run" then "off" then back to "run" several times. I figured if it was an "initial spurt" situation, that should still be several ounces of fuel pumped, enough to at least start the engine. No luck. Engine cranked but didn't start.

Anyway, that's where I am. I feel like I've mostly ruled out fuel delivery. You'll recall that after a previous stumble-sputter-die episode I replaced the coil and got the van to run normally for a day. Then it died, we replaced the fuel pump, and that takes us to the start of this post.

Can you save my reputation as a worthy father and save my son from a life of leasing Toyotas? WTF should I check next?
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1988 Westy, Bostig v2.0