Ignition Switch Question

[Team WorldTour]

Does anyone have some tips (or part numbers) to bypass the ignition switch?
I'm thinking of a 'combat switch' configuration, like a two position switch for the accessories and a push button to engage the starter.

I had a friend wire up something similar on my '78 Georgia monster truck, many years ago. The key is then for the doors and the steering lock.

EDIT:
I've found and ordered these-
This switch is rated at 20 amps

This pushbutton is rated at 60 amps

And I will use this for a switch cover

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1990 Feldjäger Syncro AAZ
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"Where am I going? And what am I doing in this handbasket?" -Nicodemus Jordan
When All Else Fails: Lather, Rinse, Repeat!

[Vnyd Dog]

This dude did a pushbutton starter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFGZfqCdNG0&t=570s
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'87 Westy 1.8T Conversion, Orignal Owner, European Delivery @ Westfalia factory in Weidenbrueck.
The Story:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=713391&highlight=life

[Team WorldTour]

That's real cool, but I'm looking to go further.
The key will no longer work a switch, but a lock.
So, with no keys, I will be able to start it up by flicking (hidden) switches and pushing (hidden) buttons. I just need to figure out which wires go where.
The female plug has six slots, but five wires (and one of those wires (grey w/ red stripe) is just long enough to reach under the dash, but not plugged into anything). The Guenzl switch has six poles. But for what?
So, in actuality, four wires. Two for the power switch, two for the starter button.
_________________
1990 Feldjäger Syncro AAZ
Click to view image
H6 Subaru Engine Swap Thread
WV2ZZZ25ZFH094138(x)/ WV2YB0257LH057308(x)/ WV2ZZZ25ZLG113270/
"Where am I going? And what am I doing in this handbasket?" -Nicodemus Jordan
When All Else Fails: Lather, Rinse, Repeat!

[DuncanS]

Why would you want to do this? You will lose the load reduction relay component of the system. I would be concerned about the load capability of the toggle switch you propose rated at 20 amps. Lights, heater blowers starter solenoids use all of that. Unless you relay everything to reduce current, I don't think the toggle will stand up to the load. In addition, the terminals on the toggles are usually wimpy and difficult to get sizable wires--#10--to attach decently. Since you still need the key to unlock the steering, I don't know what you have accomplished. A new ignition switch will cost less than the parts you are considering.

[Team WorldTour]

I don't understand. I'm eliminating the electrical switch in the ignition barrel. I'm taking these wires to a different switch. As long as the switch is correctly rated, what's the downside (aside from personal preference/ objection to reasons of change)?
I can't find any amp ratings for the original switch, but the parts I'm looking to use will be of the highest ratings I can find. I think if the new parts are rated high enough, the connectors will be the correct size for the wires, right?

I haven't done anything yet, this is more a fact finding/ thought experiment sort of thread.

I want to pro/ con the endeavor before I make a final decision.
_________________
1990 Feldjäger Syncro AAZ
Click to view image
H6 Subaru Engine Swap Thread
WV2ZZZ25ZFH094138(x)/ WV2YB0257LH057308(x)/ WV2ZZZ25ZLG113270/
"Where am I going? And what am I doing in this handbasket?" -Nicodemus Jordan
When All Else Fails: Lather, Rinse, Repeat!

[djkeev]

I'm sure younunderstand how an ignition switch works?

How it cuts off certian electronics as it is turned to the spring loaded starter mode?

You will need to replicate that function with your momentary contact starter switch.

Dave
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Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[Team WorldTour]

[Abscate]

Ignition;switches became complicated because of the dumbing down of drivers

The switch is complicated because as Dave says, it makes multiple make/ break connections as it is rotated.

You could go to a simple terminal 15 30 50 rated switch with a push button for starter if you develop a protocol to start like we did in the old days.

Example, if you stalled an old car , before you restarted, you killed the headlights to reduce battery load.

I’ll take rated push switch over the hot start relay crap anyday
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.ssS!

[DanHoug]

is that a rubber cover over the black push button switch? if so, living in an area that just finished 3 days in a row in the mid minus 40Fs, high around -20F, i'd look for a switch that does NOT have a rubber cover as they can become rock hard in the cold and you'd never be able to push the starter button.

personally, i like the idea of a dedicated, high amperage start button. just one step away from the 'stomp starter' where you used your foot to mechanically engage the bendix and starter contacts.
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-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com

[Wildthings]

I ran my '74 Bay for years with a toggle switch for the ignition and a push button starter switch (the replacement ignition switches weren't available for it at one point in time and then for a while were something like $250). Worked fine except that I would sometime absentmindedly get in put the key in the ignition and expect it to start, or just push the starter button without throwing the toggle and wonder why it wouldn't catch. Grrrr

You would need to do some head scratching to maintain the functionality of the "X" circuit but somehow it could be done, maybe add a normally closed relay to the "X" circuit that would open when the starter was activated.

[Team WorldTour]

...
_________________
1990 Feldjäger Syncro AAZ
Click to view image
H6 Subaru Engine Swap Thread
WV2ZZZ25ZFH094138(x)/ WV2YB0257LH057308(x)/ WV2ZZZ25ZLG113270/
"Where am I going? And what am I doing in this handbasket?" -Nicodemus Jordan
When All Else Fails: Lather, Rinse, Repeat!

[Team WorldTour]

[Wildthings]

[djkeev]

You need to pull out the wiring diagram and know what you are dealing with before you go cutting wires abd reworking things.

Load Reduction Relay, there's a reason for it.


Dave
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Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[DuncanS]

Again, I don't understand the rationale for doing this. What is your goal and what are you trying to achieve? All the necessary wires are already at the OG switch with the proper connectors. Doesn't it just make sense to use all that and plug them into a new switch designed the way is is supposed to work?

However, if you are determined, DON'T DO ANYTHING until you get a copy of Bentley and learn how to read the current paths. Everyone is correct about the X circuit path and the load reduction relay. They are there for a good reason. I'm confused about the fact that you say all the lights, dash and radio work off the house battery. In order to start the car everything (except for the X circuit) has to be energized during cranking. Unless some pretty weird stuff has been done to separate out the various circuits, the house battery will have to be on line at the time of cranking and so It's hard to imagine why someone would go to all this trouble.

[Team WorldTour]

Ok, I'll ponder this some more....
_________________
1990 Feldjäger Syncro AAZ
Click to view image
H6 Subaru Engine Swap Thread
WV2ZZZ25ZFH094138(x)/ WV2YB0257LH057308(x)/ WV2ZZZ25ZLG113270/
"Where am I going? And what am I doing in this handbasket?" -Nicodemus Jordan
When All Else Fails: Lather, Rinse, Repeat!

[dhaavers]

FWIW: Your toggle switch COULD be SPDT, with starter relay on one side & "X" relay on the other side.
Switching to START removes the unrelated loads, then switching back resumes normal operation...

<shrug>

- Dave
_________________
86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS>

[DuncanS]

The problem with switching as proposed by a SPDT would be that there would be an interval with no power at all to either of the circuits. If you are going to do this I would use a relay triggered by the starter button to drop the selected loads out. Given the sensitivity of the ECU, this double throw option is not something that on the face of it sounds like worth doing when there are so many other alternatives. I can understand the idea of hidden ignition and start switches. I had a bug 30 years ago where I did this as I didn't want to have to mess with a key. There was no steering lock at that time so I would just get in, flip the ignition, push the button and go. Lived in a mostly rural area and didn't ever worry about locking the car. But if you need a key to get into the van and to unlock the steering, I don't see the advantage.

[Team WorldTour]

No ECU, Diesel AAZ.
Glow plugs and dash lights.
_________________
1990 Feldjäger Syncro AAZ
Click to view image
H6 Subaru Engine Swap Thread
WV2ZZZ25ZFH094138(x)/ WV2YB0257LH057308(x)/ WV2ZZZ25ZLG113270/
"Where am I going? And what am I doing in this handbasket?" -Nicodemus Jordan
When All Else Fails: Lather, Rinse, Repeat!

[DuncanS]

I'm sounding like a contrarian here and trying to squash your ideas. Nothing farther from the truth. I love guys who come up with ingenious solutions especially to problems which don't need solving, which is my mantra.

However, it's hard to give a realistic comment on something that isn't fully described. For example you say the house battery supplies all the lights (dash only?) radio and glow plugs. If the battery is connected in parallel to the start battery so it can be charged from a single alternator, then for all practical purposes it is acting as a single battery, but with a lot more capacity. The point of a load reduction relay is to take the high current demand components out of the circuit during the cranking of the starter which is drawing ~100 amps. Driving lights, heater blower, radiator blower, heated window defrosters, heated seats, inverter are typical high load draws and could total 50ish amps competing with the starter motor if they are not turned off or taken off line during the cranking. When I was still in my brand new split window bus years, there were no load reduction relays and we were told by our parents to make sure to turn all that stuff off. Now we have automatic trannies, iPhones and don't want to bother with actually knowing about inconvenient stuff like that. So as long as you take the high demand stuff off line while cranking, it doesn't matter. Personally, since you have a bad boy vehicle, I would go with the heavy duty rotary lever switches look from the 40's and 50's. No one would know what they did and so you would have security at some level, especially with a hidden kill switch.