Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff?

[Slimvest]

Gnarly.

Sounds like you two should win this week's/month's Vanagon commitment award.
_________________
'87 GL w/ Reimo top

[T3TRIS]

[Waldi]

A so called "sport VC" without any test bench data, is the last thing i would intalll into my Syncro without a decoupler.

[Sodo]

Apologies to Waldi for the headache medications this may require, but,,,, And for typing a book to read on your iphone....

What I would install BEFORE the first road test... Add 8 micron filtering to that expensive transaxle BEFORE it makes its first rotation.

You only have one opportunity to prevent all those new bearings from the “steel break-in trash” that will circulate thousands of times (denting the wonderful new bearings). You have the “extremely rare” opportunity to remove and capture this inevitable trash from the lubricant (almost) the moment it departs your new gears/R&P/shafts etc. BEFORE the same chunk goes thru your pinion bearing 1,000 times.

This ZERO Miles opportunity to break-in that transaxle for longest lifespan is one-time. “Soccer mom” didn’t have that opportunity and didn’t care when that van was new. But the trans was new and OEM clean PLUS she didn’t have the same problems you have (antiquity, $11,000 bill, NLA parts and (130/90=) +44% HP). Plus she didn’t have Sodo on her case cuz back then,,,, Sodo was destroying transaxles without a care in the world (worried more about WBX headgaskets).

Think of your new pinion bearing (7 inch-lbs resistance set by mfr) like it is your child.

Here’s a diagram with the “pinion bearing” labeled. Its similar to a front wheel bearing except much bigger, and there’s no nut to set the preload. Preload is set by the bearing manufacturer to be mashed together by the pinion nut, set at "7 inch-lbs rotating resistance when new". After break-in it probably spins “free” in its normal state.

But during break-in, there is zero clearance (actually “negative”) thus any metal particles (even 1 micron) in your lubricant going through that beautiful new bearing puts dents in the races and rollers. Bigger particles = bigger dents. Note that if a perticle is "visible" like a sparkle in the sun, it's bigger than 5 microns. Anyway, break in trash is substantially bigger than 5 microns. Like 50 microns, 100 microns, so they make big dents. And those make more sparklies (which make even more small dents). Best to capture them at first opportunity.

As good as GTA is, they cannot compare to the cleanliness of an OEM assembler with a "clean-room" using 100% new parts never been soiled. And there's new trash from break-in of new parts too. Anyway, just wanted to make sure you understood the “opportunity that sits in front of you” (Your transaxle case plumbed for circulation/filtering).

You probably know I’ve built an elaborate electronic temperature-controlled cooling system which was big project and loads of fun too. But a conclusion (of some of us) that has emerged from all this is that a hot trans gets hot because of “additive problems”. Worn out bearings, big tires, too much HP, too heavy, too fast, 5.43 & 6.17, WHERE.....drumroll....metal in the lubricant (sparkles) increase friction thus heat, and each steel particle generates MORE steel particles. More contamination all the time, the longer you run that contaminated oil. (with big tires/engine/weight/lead foot etc).

Where one prime contributor - lubricant condition - stands out as a solvable problem. Or can be mitigated by "maintenance".
Get the sh** OUT of your lubricant.
Whereas the other problems, too heavy/fast/HP etc remain unsolvable.

There's also the mainshaft bearing that takes the force of 4th gear. It is nice to preserve the mainshaft bearing because it sits high above the oil level and most of the miles are in 4th gear, at high speed, near the top of the engine's torque output curve.

Anyway I’d get a pump and a Canton Racing 8micron filter filtering your lubricant before the first drive and run continuously the first 1000 miles - or more miles. Controls and/or oil cooling can be added later. Maybe add a temperature guage, it’s possible that you don’t need cooling with 130HP and sensible driving.

Some will say "a transmission is designed for that trash".
This is correct.

So what's gonna wear the transaxle out, after you remove the contamination?
And if you don't let the lubricant degrade, oxidize, turn black?

Oil coolers and lubricant filter systems provide 500,000 to million-mile lifetimes for big trucks. We can do it too.
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[Waldi]

No need to apologize. Since long time i dont read your theoratical nonsense books.

[T3TRIS]

[syncrodoka]

Sodo is the one behind all of those posts if you haven't figured out by his enthusiasm on this thread.

[Sodo]

Read most things that Waldi writes, but not his opinions on lubricant contamination. His opinions contrast starkly with that of lubrication experts. Waldi has the knowledge and mental capacity to be very helpful in our quest to extend the lifetime of our transaxles but he's is like a "science denier" when it comes to lubrication.

Anyway you take what you can get, right? We are lucky that he responds very well to "other" transaxle questions and many things Vanagon.
=================

[T3TRIS]

[Alaskaberrys]

[Sodo]

[T3TRIS]

Alright, let me know if I'm in the right track. Here's a mixture of what was suggested and others that I found so far (prices as of date of posting, I'll update with more items as they are suggested):

12V gear pump options:
Weddle Industries 9-PUMP3 - $399
I don't know the specs but Sodo said it'd go through 4qts in 30 seconds so I imagine it's a 2GPM heavy duty pump that's described as oversized. It's rather large and needs to be mounted
Flow Rate: 2 GPM?
Ports: AN-8 male
Amps: ?
Dimensions: ?

Amazon Heavy Duty Rear Mount Oil Gear Pump 12V DC 3.2 GPM Scavenge Replace STS - $63.80
Untested by our amazing syncro nuts but on reviewer said "Pumps great. Works great. Loud as #$&@." Potentially the same guts as the Weddle pump, without the cooling fins (though the GPMs would be different). Probably the same size as the Weddle pump
Flow Rate: 3.2 GPM
Ports: 3/8" Female JIC
Amps: 7A 12v @ 0PSI
Dimensions: Length 6.25" / Motor Diameter: 3" / Base: 3"x4"

Amazon Electric Oil Scavenge Gear Pump Remote Turbo Rear Mount Return Line 12 Volts - 198.95
Much smaller pump with smaller flow rate (would still exchange the entire 4qts in less than a minute), less draw and described as pretty quiet. One reviewer was worried about temperature specs but other people don't seem worried about that.
Flow Rate: 1.3 GPM
Ports: 3/8" Male NPT
Amps: 5A 12v @ 0PSI
Dimensions: Length: 4.75" Motor Diameter: 2" Base: 2.5" x 4"

There are many other comparable pumps around...

Filter options:
Canton Racing CM Inline Oil Filters 25-101]Canton Racing CM Inline Oil Filters 25-101 - $122
Filter size: 8 microns (6-pack filter refill)
Ports: 1/2" Female NPT
Dimensions: Length: 6" Diameter: 2.75"

Can fuel filters work with different inner elements as long as they fit? There are a bunch of options for pretty cheap though they aren't described as oil filters.
Aeormotive also makes 10 micron filters though they are described as fuel filters.

Magnetic inline filters
TurboWerx Exa-Pure™ Magnetic 100µ Inline Filter - $79
3/8NPT ports+AN adapters

Magnefine 3/8" Magnetic Inline Transmission/Power Steering Filter - $25.95
Basic inline magnetic filter. Filters oil down to 25 micron and claims 3 micron for ferrous particles. Arguably disposable. Doesn't look like it can be opened to check for shavings.

Magnom Mini - In-line Magnetic Filter for lines up to .5" - Filter Ferrous Particles from Engine/Hydraulic Oil and Diesel Fuel - $119.99
Seems like the best option (and most expensive). SAE-8 female port (different than AN-8?)

Other items
1/2 hoses, temperature sensors, AN-8 fittings, relays and switches are pretty straight forward.

Full customizable kits:
Driftmotion Manual Transmission Oil Cooler Kit - starting at $299
$414.99 with pump, 240 micron filter, thermal switch, a couple AN-6 fittings but no oil cooler.

===============

[MsTaboo]

Here's a gearbox oil cooler/filter kit, it's marketed for a Toyota but should work.
https://www.driftmotion.com/Driftmotion-Manual-Transmission-Oil-Cooler-Kit-p/dm3561.htm
_________________
Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec

The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
Help the fight against Truth Decay.
Defend democracy, support Ukraine.

[T3TRIS]

[Sodo]

MsTaboo that's interesting.....

Don't see a lot of transmission filter kits out there.
Note what the Driftmotion fellers say about filtering:

We offer a special 240 micron filter designed specifically for thicker gear oils. It has a washable stainless steel filter element. A normal 100 micron filter designed for fuel will cause too much back pressure on the pump, and clog up much too quickly, which could overheat and damage the pump

Driftmotion needs to read Machinery Lubrication.
240 micron? 100 micron? Can you say "bug screen"?

Oil film thickness is appx 1/2 to 1 micron thick, for ball bearings. The "Machinery Lubrication" fellers recommend 3 microns for roller bearings and gears. 3 microns is difficult/expensive to attain. They say it's ideal to filter to less than oil film thickness, but that's almost impossible. The 8 micron filter from Canton is about the best I've seen.

But 240 or 100 micron? That's not a filter, mate.

Curious what kind of trouble that Mocal pump has pumping thru the 100 micron filter. I'm running a 10 micron filter, and the Weddle pump doesn't even get warm. If those guys are plugging their filter they should try filtering finer, so their trash doesn't generate even more trash.

"Theoretically"...... once the break-in trash is captured, and deleted, one filter element should last the lifetime of the transmission. Right?

......we don't know this (yet).
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[MsTaboo]

Yeah I saw that, figured they meant 10 and 24, not 100 and 240. Would need to call to verify.
_________________
Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec

The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
Help the fight against Truth Decay.
Defend democracy, support Ukraine.

[Steve Arndt]

[gears]

I'd be comfortable with a 240 micron draw-through pre-filter (placed between my bellhousing outlet and the electric pump). After the pump goes the Canton + Magnon, and then a cooler (if used).
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com

[T3TRIS]

[quote="Steve Arndt"]

[MsTaboo]