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Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff?
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

MsTaboo wrote:
So if the filter is not passing the oil it's just being bypassed by the relief valve right?


Engine oil filters have a relief valve because the flow is the first concern at high RPM and the cleanliness comes second. So if you never change the filter and it plugs up, the bypass buys you more engine time. Its killing your engine very slowly by contamination vs killing it instantly by spinning a bearing.

If some oil is going thru the relief valve, the balance is still getting filtered (at some time it becomes 100% bypass). Bypass doesnít open until high rpm flow overwhelms the filter capacity, thus a high resistant filter still cleans oil at lower rpms for a period.

The Canton 8micron filter has no relief valve. The guy didnít want to say its OK for gear oil cuz he doesnít know. I havenít tested it, to be honest Iím relying on Samba member PCForno.

The one thing I donít like about the Canton 8micron is the flow is from inside to outside. Consequently you canít inspect it easily. You have to cut it open.

I think I recall that member PCForno was stuffing his gear oil thru it backwards ďoutside to inĒ. Maybe he will chime in???
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:59 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Quote:
If there is an 8 micron filter after the pump, wouldn't the 240 micron one be redundant? I guess it'd catch big stuff and keep the other one clean? Just seems like we'd be adding a lot of piping and connections where leaks could happen.


The kind of chunks I've seen could easily ruin an oil pump. A pre-filter is a must for my system.

Quote:
The one thing I donít like about the Canton 8micron is the flow is from inside to outside. Consequently you canít inspect it easily. You have to cut it open.


Perhaps inside to outside flow is a good thing when there's no by-pass valve ..
.
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Ok thatís a ďbypassĒ Shocked

But I doubt 18 psi (??) of an electric pump can deform the metal caged Canton filter. This oiling system is supplemental, not critical; like on an engine that will spin a bearing if the engine oil stops at high RPM.

If transaxle oil stops, the worst that happens is you revert to splash oiling, which can work OK....for a while .... often a long while ... like 150k miles, 225k and more (with a WBX). Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

VanagonVentures wrote:
Canton-Racing-26-120-Filter-Element


I used a Canton filter on my hot rod engine. High quality stuff. It was the only filter I could find with two outs for my dual carbed motor.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
MsTaboo wrote:
So if the filter is not passing the oil it's just being bypassed by the relief valve right?


Engine oil filters have a relief valve because the flow is the first concern at high RPM and the cleanliness comes second. So if you never change the filter and it plugs up, the bypass buys you more engine time. Its killing your engine very slowly by contamination vs killing it instantly by spinning a bearing.

If some oil is going thru the relief valve, the balance is still getting filtered (at some time it becomes 100% bypass). Bypass doesnít open until high rpm flow overwhelms the filter capacity, thus a high resistant filter still cleans oil at lower rpms for a period.

The Canton 8micron filter has no relief valve. The guy didnít want to say its OK for gear oil cuz he doesnít know. I havenít tested it, to be honest Iím relying on Samba member PCForno.

The one thing I donít like about the Canton 8micron is the flow is from inside to outside. Consequently you canít inspect it easily. You have to cut it open.

I think I recall that member PCForno was stuffing his gear oil thru it backwards ďoutside to inĒ. Maybe he will chime in???


I run mine from the inside of the filter to the outside. iirc, this is the recommended direction of flow from the manufacturer. The filter medium is certainly not too restrictive - I get a good rate of flow - havenít measured it in GPM - but itís pretty fast through the filter.

In the attached picture below, the oil goes from filter to the Magnom filter, then to the cooler, then gets squirted on 4th gear/MS bearing interface (the infamous divet on the intermediate housing)
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T3TRIS
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Pcforno wrote:
I run mine from the inside of the filter to the outside. iirc, this is the recommended direction of flow from the manufacturer. The filter medium is certainly not too restrictive - I get a good rate of flow - havenít measured it in GPM - but itís pretty fast through the filter.

In the attached picture below, the oil goes from filter to the Magnom filter, then to the cooler, then gets squirted on 4th gear/MS bearing interface (the infamous divet on the intermediate housing)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Perfect! Iíll send you my shipping address! What a great way to meet someone! Razz

Haha, more seriously though, would you mind listing all the parts you have from one gearbox port to the other? Especially if itís something youíve been very happy with!
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Pcforno
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

[quote="VanagonVentures"]
Pcforno wrote:
]

Perfect! Iíll send you my shipping address! What a great way to meet someone! Razz

Haha, more seriously though, would you mind listing all the parts you have from one gearbox port to the other? Especially if itís something youíve been very happy with!


Well I donít know if I have all the part numbers and what not, but I have an adaptor from the transaxle drain, going to 8AN compatible tubing, to the eBay version of the weddle pump (turbowerks pump - the large one) - to the filter setup you see (canton 8 micron with a Magnom mini - they have quick release AN fittings so you can take them off and inspect them) to a large-ish Derale oil cooler, back to the transaxle where Iíve drilled a port above the fill hole, aimed at MS bearing.
The tubing and AN fittings as well as the adaptors to screw into the drain hole and back into the transaxle are all available at Pegasus auto racing.
I donít know the thread sizes off hand - thereís been a bunch of threads detailing pretty much all the info to make one of these setups, including where Iíve done the return tubing. - Iím not trying to be evasive, I just donít have a handy list of all the parts, but theyíre easy enough to start piecing together once youíve got the general idea -
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T3TRIS
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Pcforno wrote:
Well I donít know if I have all the part numbers and what not, but I have an adaptor from the transaxle drain, going to 8AN compatible tubing, to the eBay version of the weddle pump (turbowerks pump - the large one) - to the filter setup you see (canton 8 micron with a Magnom mini - they have quick release AN fittings so you can take them off and inspect them) to a large-ish Derale oil cooler, back to the transaxle where Iíve drilled a port above the fill hole, aimed at MS bearing.
The tubing and AN fittings as well as the adaptors to screw into the drain hole and back into the transaxle are all available at Pegasus auto racing.
I donít know the thread sizes off hand - thereís been a bunch of threads detailing pretty much all the info to make one of these setups, including where Iíve done the return tubing. - Iím not trying to be evasive, I just donít have a handy list of all the parts, but theyíre easy enough to start piecing together once youíve got the general idea -


Yep, that's what I'm figuring out! Hey thanks for all the details, whether they are specific part numbers or not. It's super helpful as is! People on this platform have been incredibly helpful.
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- 1994 Subaru EJ22
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- Front end rebuild

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Amazon has a similar two stage filter for 65. 25-118 Billet Aluminum CM Oil Filter 6" In-Line Super Twin Stage 9" Long. Itís bigger.

https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/canton-25-118...9-in-long/

Same 8 microns plus stainless screen. Would this go before the pump? Or is it best practices to put a filter after the pump?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

I canít think of a real benefit to use that 2-stage.

Im using a big neodymium magnet at my drain, which will catch bigger particles out of the oil, hopefully protecting the pump. A bug screen can go before the pump, being less likely to cause cavitation on the suction side.

But a filter with high back pressure like 8 microns needs go after the pump, on the pressure side, where the pressure (~18psi) pushes the oil thru. I doubt you could suck gear oil through an 8 micron filter anyway. I bet it would never start pumping. But someone can try it Wink

Keep in mind your oil is going to be generally ďcleanĒ from now on. The pump is not working in sludge because the system has been incrementally removing the crud.

Most of the steel crud is already sequestered in your filter. The only crud coming through the pump is the seldom steel particle coming off a gear or whatever, that you will catch & hold cuz you donít want it circulating the trans 10,000 times (& making more crud-babies out there).
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:23 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Iíve read and re read the canton description of both filters and they appear identical except one has the prescribe and is much larger. The other difference is it is half price the price.

Maybe I can figure out how to get magnets in the screen half?
Thanks
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:37 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Pictures of the modified skid plate frame for drain fitting clearance on a syncro would be helpful. I saw a single pic in Sodo's gallery. It would be nice to be able to drain without having to drop the ladder/skid tray each time.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Here's another update.

Believe it or not, building a new chicken pen has taken priority over the van and I have a pile of photo-work that lined up which will also delay the van even more.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

However this was a good opportunity to order even more parts for our van. I have yet to drop the tank (that's next on the list) but looking at the straps, I figured most of the hardware there won't be pretty. So on top of the fuel line and tank reseal kit, we ordered:
- Fuel sending unit 4WD
- SS tank straps
- Fuel filter bracket
- SS fuel pump bracket

Our EJ22 was installed a while back (2 owners before us) with a KEP setup. We learned a few things from this setup (this will relate to transmissions, I swear):
- The engine carrier was supposedly designed to hold the engine a couple inches higher to compensate for the Subaru's low hanging oil pan. We have the Small Car Performance pan so it's not too much of an issue.
- The KEP setup has its own heat shield and engine mounted muffler bracket. However ours never came with these and the shop we had used to rebuild our engine had welded the new muffler to a self-made bracket attached to the engine. That weld cracked the exhaust shell of course... The exhaust was already loud in the first place, now it's even louder.
- The KEP exhaust manifold goes from the exhaust ports to the back of the engine (front of the van), passes right in front of the transmission drain plug and comes back around the engine. This makes reaching the transmission drain plug a royal PIA and probably heats up that transmission oil more than it needs to.

That last point was a motivation for us to upgrade that system, now that we have a jewel of a transaxle. Therefore we ordered the RMW exhaust manifold system from Van-Cafe, which is all routed toward the back of the van.

KEP style (image from www.buslab.com):
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

RMW style (image from human_compass I believe):
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

And since our muffler was loud and is now cracked, we figured we might as well get their stealth muffler. However, this won't fit quite right with the KEP engine carrier, which holds the engine a couple inches higher than stock (which also jams our air filter onto the engine bay lid). The engine carrier would need to have shims to lower the assembly. So we might as well order the RMW EJ22 engine carrier too while we're at it. And of course everything else that goes with it: heat shield, exhaust manifold gasket, exhaust brackets and 2" tailpipe kit.

Where does it stop?!

Well, not here I guess. I still have to place an order for the transmission filtering system. All the parts above are pretty straight forward but I still have to make a few choices for the filtering. Anyhow, progress, right?
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- 215/75-R15
- Mexico paint job
- Front end rebuild

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Sodo
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

VanagonVentures wrote:
- The KEP exhaust manifold goes from the exhaust ports to the back of the engine (front of the van), passes right in front of the transmission drain plug and comes back around the engine. This makes reaching the transmission drain plug a royal PIA and probably heats up that transmission oil more than it needs to.


I don't think it's significant. A simple heat shield between the two would reduce concern to zero.
You have bigger fish to fry. Wink

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I used steel tube for this area, being worried about rubber hose near the exhaust header.
I think rubber hose is a valid concern, but not for steel.
In general, when the header is really hot, there is significant airflow at that time (driving fast).

But it's worth a test, right?
I could put a heat shield between header and the steel pipe, go drive, and check if the oil pipe is getting hot (with pump NOT running).
I will try to remember that test.
Maybe Samba member RCMD and I can meet somewhere between Seattle and Portland for a testaganza! ( Syncro test mule) Devise tests, camp, test, camp, eat yak...
Could be fun for a couple Vanagon knuckleheads.
RCMD certainly has the instrumentation for just aout anything you wanna know.
Problem is, valid testing takes time and focus.
You can't do lots of testing.
Pretty much gotta just settle on one test and focus all energy on that. Wink


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


VanagonVentures wrote:
Where does it stop?!

Well, not here I guess. I still have to place an order for the transmission filtering system. All the parts above are pretty straight forward but I still have to make a few choices for the filtering. Anyhow, progress, right?


Here's what my drain tee looks like. I re-tapped the Smallcar bellhousing from M14x1.5 to 3/8NPT. Screwed in a "close nipple" and then screwed on the brass block tee. Which has a magnetic plug in one side, and the oil outlet on the other side.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Oil to my pump goes past this honkin' 3/8" diameter neodymium magnet.
No chunks will get to the pump, but plenty of small stuff passes right by in the stream of oil.

PS An FYI for Smallcar folks, Smallcar bellhousings started out 3/8 NPT, then M14 x1.5 and currently M18x1.5.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

For draining do you just remove the 3/8 plug and drain from there? It looks like you have trimmed enough room to do that with the skid plate still in place. Smart. Dropping that big boy down is a pain.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Yes it would drain but Iíve never done it. Iíve removed the plug just to look at the magnet several times. I turn the pump on then unscrew the plug and it sucks air in the drain hole. Air gurgles in and only a tiny bit of oil comes out.

To change the oil I pump it out with the 12v Weddle pump. Donít need to drop the bad boy for that. Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
Someone needs to test these $63 pumps on Amazon:
Heavy Duty Rear Mount Oil Gear Pump 12V DC 3.2 GPM Scavenge
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01H1OAUIY

I would NOT be surprised if the Weddle pump is the same one (with a "cooling fins" wrap). The Weddle pump doesn't get hot so maybe the cooling fins are just bling. Get 8AN fittings for it.


OK I got one. Currently looking it over and here are some notes.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Brass gears. Looks good.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The fittings are kinda junk. It has Whitworth BSPP (parallel) threads. They are 19 threads per inch.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


A US version 3/8NPT is 18 threads per inch. Strange thing is,,, the 3/8NPT fits better than the fittings supplied which bottom out, loose and wobbly. Whereas the 3/8NPT screws in aout 2/3 deep and then tightens against the NPT taper. So with some Permatex Ultra-Gray 3/8NPT fittings are good. I'd get 3/8NPT-8AN fittings.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Performance. This thing pumps more than the Weddle pump. That's a decent stream of water shooting 4 feet horizontal, and 35 inches vertical. Which is NOT necessary, the weddle pump is 2 GPM and exchanges the entire transaxle capacity twice per minute. This one might change it 3.7x per minute, which wouldn't hurt, but it's not necessary.
You can imagine it would wet down some gears!
But it will be pushing heavy gear oil thru a filter, so it won't pump as much as with water.

They specify duty cycle rating of "30 minutes". I can't even guess what that "30 minutes means" with regards to the suitability. What I would do is run it continuously at the pressure and viscosity of the environment it will be used. Which is pushing warm gear oil thru an 8 micron filter. If the motor gets hot after 30 minutes, then the 30-minute rating should be heeded I suppose. If it doesn't get hot, in this specific environment, then I wouldn't worry about it.

Its quite a bit louder than the Weddle.

Anyway at $60 you could buy a spare in case it craps out.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:13 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Iím pretty sure the duty cycle rating is saying 30 minutes at full tilt. Then it needs to rest. I expect pump temp will be quite high pumping transmission fluid. Average temp 175 F to 210 F would not be uncommon. The cheaper pumps are designed to cycle on and off via a temp switch and relay.

In racing I have found by the time the temp switch turns the pump on, itís too late to get temp under control. Pump and cooler need to be working prior to passing desired temp point. Iím using my ECU to run the pump now.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:37 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

I can't say enough how informative and helpful your posts are. Thanks for taking the time out to test out these products for us.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:16 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Thanks elizer, glad you're still interested!

MarkWard wrote:
Iím pretty sure the duty cycle rating is saying 30 minutes at full tilt. Then it needs to rest. I expect pump temp will be quite high pumping transmission fluid. Average temp 175 F to 210 F would not be uncommon. The cheaper pumps are designed to cycle on and off via a temp switch and relay.


Yeah it's nebulous trying to attach a "30 minute duty cycle" to a dynamic system of multiple dimensions. So if you run it at full-tilt for 29 minutes, does it have a lifetime of forever? ---<Silly question especially for a $60 pump, but illustrates the point. I suspect the "30 minute" is totally arbitrary, a different way of stating that "this $60 pump is not rated for continuous duty" for those who would beat them up in the reviews.

MarkWard wrote:
In racing I have found by the time the temp switch turns the pump on, itís too late to get temp under control. Pump and cooler need to be working prior to passing desired temp point. Iím using my ECU to run the pump now.


A transaxle does not really have a desired operating temp. For example an engine which should be kept at ~185įF. Using a programmable temp switch ($16) you can simply choose a low temperature that starts the pump sooner. I first chose 150įF because Lubrication Engineers guy told me 150įF was "ideal for the oil". I then reduced to 142įF simply because at 150į it rarely turned on, and (as my system is with a single loop) filtration was too seldom. There are lots of variables. I'm in the PNW it could be different in southern California.

Another way is to run it on a timer, to filter, (--->bypassing the cooler) for one minute every ten. I bought the MOCAL thermostat-diverter that routes oil thru the cooler ONLY if it exceeds 150įF but I have not plumbed it yet. I believe member Jalan has done this.

BTW.... I think members will be interested how you are using your ECU to run the pump. Wink
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EJ25, Peloquin diff, locker, transaxle oil cooler/filtration system
....KTMs, GasGas, and a Stumpjumper
Gear oil is like underwear.
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