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Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff?
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T3TRIS
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:53 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

As always, impressive work!!
On our end, I’ve finally checked off a bunch of household todo items and am getting started (or continuing?) on the van. This weekend or next week, I’ll order the oil filter components.
Here’s our wordless van-todo-list:

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Guillaume and Jennifer

T3TRIS

1987 Syncro GL converted to poptop
- 1994 Subaru EJ22
- Transaxle rebuild
- 215/75-R15
- Mexico paint job
- Front end rebuild

Fun off-roading
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:58 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Thats a lot of words.
Hopefully the word "months" is not one of them.
The PNW summer is short - are you gonna be ready?
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EJ25, Peloquin diff, locker, transaxle oil cooler/filtration system
....KTMs, GasGas, and a Stumpjumper
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T3TRIS
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:03 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
Thats a lot of words.
Hopefully the word "months" is not one of them.
The PNW summer is short - are you gonna be ready?


Haha, right! We’re having a serious case of while-we’r-in-there... I’m trying to lure friends over to help with beer and pizza. Gonna work on it for a few days straight, then I’m off for a week and work on it again. We’ll see!
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Guillaume and Jennifer

T3TRIS

1987 Syncro GL converted to poptop
- 1994 Subaru EJ22
- Transaxle rebuild
- 215/75-R15
- Mexico paint job
- Front end rebuild

Fun off-roading
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:47 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

My racing transmission does have a temp that should not be exceeded. I guess the point I was trying to make my experience is that it's easier to maintain a lower temp initially than to take a higher temp and try to lower it down. Again, road racing is an entirely different situation from tooling around in our vanagons. My experience with transmission temp may not apply at all.
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T3TRIS
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:51 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
My racing transmission does have a temp that should not be exceeded. I guess the point I was trying to make my experience is that it's easier to maintain a lower temp initially than to take a higher temp and try to lower it down. Again, road racing is an entirely different situation from tooling around in our vanagons. My experience with transmission temp may not apply at all.


Somewhat like the opposite of when it’s cold out and you have to go outside: “it’s easier to stay warm than to get warm!”
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T3TRIS

1987 Syncro GL converted to poptop
- 1994 Subaru EJ22
- Transaxle rebuild
- 215/75-R15
- Mexico paint job
- Front end rebuild

Fun off-roading
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T3TRIS
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 5:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Ok, time for an update! I'm off on a trip right now but I was finally able to make some progress on the van last week. Hoping to get back to it this weekend.

First of all, I put an order in for some transmission oil plumbing. Here's what I purchased so far:
- Canton Racing CM Inline 8 micron Oil Filters 25-101 (thanks Sodo) with a couple AN-8 fittings
- CXRacing 12V Scavenge Oil Pump (which I just realized is for large turbo applications, shouldn't matter right?)
- Evil Energy AN-8 10ft line kit with fittings
- A y-fitting and a couple other fittings
Still need a transmission oil temperature sensor, gauge and relay.

Now to the van progress. I got the radiator out and started removing the rusty and gunky A/C system, removed the exhaust and engine carrier from the engine and got the gas tank out (using a friend's help and the syncro.org description) and am glad I did. Dang that was an ordeal I don't want to do again for a while! I'm glad a friend of mine showed up to help in the last steps.

The fuel sending unit was quite corroded on the outside but I've seen worse online and the corrosion doesn't go through. We have a new OE one anyway.
The straps are probably salvageable, but new stainless steel ones anyway.
The charcoal canister mounts were quite rusted too (do people get rid of these?).
The insulation foam was nasty looking and we'll probably save a few pounds of just dirt weight by cleaning it up.
Here's what it looks like.
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Behind the tank was a somewhat rusty surprise. I'm sure people have seen worse but that's something we've never really dealt with ourselves.
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Soooo... just dealt with it! Lots of grinding (too much, now that I know more about it!)
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And applied a couple thorough coats of Rust-oleum Rusty Metal Primer. I hear you already, POR-15 is the way to go but timing made it that I chose to use the primer. I've read several times that even though people don't view Rust-oleum as the best choice, there seems to be an agreement that their specific Rusty Metal Primer paint does a good job.
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Now I'm not too sure what the next step should be. I was planning on using some Rust-oleum Rubberized Automotive Undercoating partially because it's supposed to be rugged and mostly because it's supposed to help deaden sounds. Also because it seems that people who apply it properly, on top of a clean primer coat, are happy with it (others who just sprayed it directly one their rusty unprepared frames disagree) but I keep reading about people insisting not to used rubberized undercoating on frames.
Is it because it starts cracking in the elements? I'd hope my thorough primer job would be the real barrier against rust coming back, and I don't intend on putting back moisture-trapping foam on the tank. I'd hope that part of the body, which is tucked in and pretty well protected from direct harsh environments would survive quite a long time with proper application of that undercoating. More research needed.

Dang... all of that just because I suspected our viscous coupling was slipping! Gotta keep on truckin' along though, hopefully in AWD soon!
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Guillaume and Jennifer

T3TRIS

1987 Syncro GL converted to poptop
- 1994 Subaru EJ22
- Transaxle rebuild
- 215/75-R15
- Mexico paint job
- Front end rebuild

Fun off-roading
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Alaskaberrys Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 10:17 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Ooof, you’ve been busy! Shocked

Way to go. Must feel GREAT having eradicated the rust from behind you fuel tank Cool Looks great!

As to top coating your new paint my 2¢ - and I am not a body guy - is you’ll want something that bonds very well to your fresh paint or none at all. If just for sound deadening you might add a fat max type product to the upper side and not do anything else underneath except periodically spray fluid film behind the tank - it’s pretty protected from road rocks and such, just going to be spray/dust/mud up there. Then add your rubberized undercoating in the more visible* areas prone to rock and debris strikes (*where you check on it’s long term adhesion).

Either way, looking forward to seeing what you post - thanks for the great documentation!
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T3TRIS
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PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2019 11:03 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Alaskaberrys wrote:
Ooof, you’ve been busy! Shocked

Way to go. Must feel GREAT having eradicated the rust from behind you fuel tank Cool Looks great!

As to top coating your new paint my 2¢ - and I am not a body guy - is you’ll want something that bonds very well to your fresh paint or none at all. If just for sound deadening you might add a fat max type product to the upper side and not do anything else underneath except periodically spray fluid film behind the tank - it’s pretty protected from road rocks and such, just going to be spray/dust/mud up there. Then add your rubberized undercoating in the more visible* areas prone to rock and debris strikes (*where you check on it’s long term adhesion).

Either way, looking forward to seeing what you post - thanks for the great documentation!


Thank you! It does feel great and I'm still in awe at what I sometimes tackle. Fuzzy & Sandy put it beautifully on one of their Instagram posts: "whether we think we can or we think we can't, we are right!" Words to live by.

As far as the paint perspective goes, my thought was that if the rubberized compound can be applied properly behind the tank, in a way that it will last, there should be only benefits. As you mentioned, that area is quite protected so my hope would be that the undercoating would last longer than directly on the frame. And as long as the primer is solid, even if the rubber would crack, I would hope it wouldn't crack in a way that would make the two coats of primer also crack, exposing metal.

We have a little PTSD with van noise. We suspect our trip to Mexico and back to get our van painted did permanent damage to our hearing. Both Jennifer and I now hear a faint continuous whistling when it's silent and we didn't used to before that trip (on which we noticed that the noise was getting old). At least Jennifer definitely has that as a new thing since that trip. Many things contributed to that, it was the first time we drove almost all day, 3 days in a row, rather than a couple hour trip to go camp. No A/C meant that we also had windows open, which doesn't help. And the whole time, our muffler was cracked meaning our van's engine was just loud as heck too. So any opportunity to reduce noise, even if small, is kind of worth it to us.

We had the paint shop apply QuietCoat to the inside of the van from the floor all the way to the bottom part of the windows. Once back in Portland, I applied 80mil Kilmat to most hidden surfaces on the inside of the van. I'm also considering adding a layer of specific sound deadening material. And we have the RMW exhaust system now, with their stealth muffler. And new front door seals and vent wing seals to install.

Anyhow, gives you an idea of how we try to chase sound in the upgrades we make! If the rubberized undercoating helps reduce sound and has a potential of staying on in that protected area for a dozen years or more, even if it cracks a little, as long as it doesn't expose the metal underneath and we still have the primer as a barrier, it might be worth it to us. We're not committed yet and are open to suggestions though, but that's our train of thought right now.
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T3TRIS

1987 Syncro GL converted to poptop
- 1994 Subaru EJ22
- Transaxle rebuild
- 215/75-R15
- Mexico paint job
- Front end rebuild

Fun off-roading
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 12:27 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Your ideas sound well thought out. I’m back and forth on the undercoating for the doka. Lots of rust hidden under what must be a 1/4” of some kind of 30 year old urethane but only where it was cracked or pitted. Or where rust delveloped from the backside - my biggest worry about covering the area up again. That said, the work done 10 years ago - the last “restoration” - everywhere the epoxy paint undercoat (not sure if POR-15 or not) was put down over bare metal (that does not look like “old rust”) had lifted and trapped water - lots of new rust in those area. It was pretty well adhered to the “old rust” and stopped it short. I think you did well with the route you chose in my opinion.

I “hear” you on the sound issue. As our Westy lives down in Washington I’m driving it only 3-4 times a year. Each time, I find my self forgetting just how loud it is. Listing to a podcast? Better keep it under 40. And this is after all new front end bushings, alignment, sway bar, new quiet tires. Sound matt is definitely in the future. I’ll have to look up QuietCoat.

BTW, just installed our RMW tuned exhaust last trip - love it. Didn’t get the stealth muffler so no quieter but a discernable bump in “spunk” for our old 2.1. I’ve read that you need to check the fasteners on the couplings for looseness periodically.
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 8:37 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Alaskaberrys wrote:
Your ideas sound well thought out. I’m back and forth on the undercoating for the doka. Lots of rust hidden under what must be a 1/4” of some kind of 30 year old urethane but only where it was cracked or pitted. Or where rust delveloped from the backside - my biggest worry about covering the area up again. That said, the work done 10 years ago - the last “restoration” - everywhere the epoxy paint undercoat (not sure if POR-15 or not) was put down over bare metal (that does not look like “old rust”) had lifted and trapped water - lots of new rust in those area. It was pretty well adhered to the “old rust” and stopped it short. I think you did well with the route you chose in my opinion.

I “hear” you on the sound issue. As our Westy lives down in Washington I’m driving it only 3-4 times a year. Each time, I find my self forgetting just how loud it is. Listing to a podcast? Better keep it under 40. And this is after all new front end bushings, alignment, sway bar, new quiet tires. Sound matt is definitely in the future. I’ll have to look up QuietCoat.

BTW, just installed our RMW tuned exhaust last trip - love it. Didn’t get the stealth muffler so no quieter but a discernable bump in “spunk” for our old 2.1. I’ve read that you need to check the fasteners on the couplings for looseness periodically.


Hey, I had meant to reply but... life catches on! I am glad to hear that you like the RMW setup. I just mock-installed it on our engine and it's such a lovely designed system compared to what we had before! Can't wait to button it all up and fire it up.
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Also, after considering all the opinions, I decided to go with my original plan for restoring the metal in the gas tank area. I believe I did a decent job at treating the existing rust and sealing the area. I feel confident that this restoration will last a long time, especially considering the amount of rust we had on the van before. If it took over 30 years to get to where it was behind that tank (with that moisture trapping tank lining and those rusty tank straps), I'm pretty hopeful that it will take a while for it to go worryingly bad again back there.

By the way, let us know what you think about QuietCoat if you end up looking into it.

Anyhow, as usual, things are taking longer than we'd like with the van, but it's for the better. I believe we have everything mostly ready for getting everything back together, especially for the transaxle which is what this post should be about after all right? I think we have all the plumbing we need, including temperature sensor and gauge. The only unknown so far would be mounts for the pump and filters.

I've removed all of the existing A/C system with gunky/rusty hoses and A/C radiator that lead nowhere.
I've also been busy restoring the gas tank area, engine bay and engine mount areas.
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I scrubbed a little too much in the engine bay and discovered poorly bondo'ed rust holes that had rusted again and needed to be fixed.
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I've also discovered that I'm not much of a welder... it ain't pretty but I think it'll do. And if not, that area doesn't seem too difficult to reach. If rust does reappear in that area, maybe by the time it does, I'll be more practiced at welding!
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I finally finished the gas tank, though it's not in yet, waiting for undercoating for fully cure.
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Still plenty left to do!
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T3TRIS

1987 Syncro GL converted to poptop
- 1994 Subaru EJ22
- Transaxle rebuild
- 215/75-R15
- Mexico paint job
- Front end rebuild

Fun off-roading
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 8:51 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

VanagonVentures wrote:

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I think your cat may be trying to tell you your cat is on backwards.

Unless there's another sensor bung upstream I can't see.
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 9:03 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:
VanagonVentures wrote:

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I think your cat may be trying to tell you your cat is on backwards.

Unless there's another sensor bung upstream I can't see.


Ha! Thanks cat!

Yeah I wondered about the orientation of that cat. Fortunately I just placed everything and didn't tighten any bolt/clamp (it all off right now). After doing all the taking apart, grinding, scrubbing, painting, waiting, getting covered in 30 year old dirt and paint, I needed a clean project with new parts! This mockup was my reward for finishing priming the engine bay Smile

Our EJ22 is '94 and OBDI. I believe it's a one-oxygen sensor setup. Though somehow the shop who did some work on that engine managed to install and wire 2 oxygen sensors, both upstream from the cat. Only one seemed to be heated.

So, a one O2 sensor system should have the bung upstream for the cat?
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T3TRIS

1987 Syncro GL converted to poptop
- 1994 Subaru EJ22
- Transaxle rebuild
- 215/75-R15
- Mexico paint job
- Front end rebuild

Fun off-roading
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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 9:11 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Yes, OBD1 is a one-sensor system, and it has to sample exhaust upstream of the catalyst.
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T3TRIS
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 9:31 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:
Yes, OBD1 is a one-sensor system, and it has to sample exhaust upstream of the catalyst.


Speaking of sensors by the way, I just figured out last night while cleaning up the wiring that our coolant level sensor (which never worked) was plugged into our O2 sensor wiring!!! We were cooking our sensors! You can read the details here.

Anyhow, I've been making some progress, slow but still progress! The gas tank is back in!!!!
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(I might have to thread the fuel lines to the engine a little differently, not sure yet. And, it's not pictured here but I added some leftover butyl deadening material to the groove on top of the tank so it doesn't rub on the rib that's up in the tank area.
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I'm mostly busy restoring the wiring harness mess right now. Hopefully when that's done I'll start piecing the engine/transaxle back together and finally lift it back into that darn van!
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T3TRIS

1987 Syncro GL converted to poptop
- 1994 Subaru EJ22
- Transaxle rebuild
- 215/75-R15
- Mexico paint job
- Front end rebuild

Fun off-roading
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 12:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Beautiful work man.
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 2:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

VanagonVentures wrote:
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I'm curious why you didn't redo the fuel tank insulation?
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 2:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Steve Arndt wrote:
Beautiful work man.


Thanks!

MsTaboo wrote:
I'm curious why you didn't redo the fuel tank insulation?


I was on the fence but these are the reasons that convinced me:
- there seems to be a consensus that European versions didn’t have any insulation.
- it was a nasty mess to remove and didn’t want to have to deal with something similar in the future.
- would’ve made reinstall somewhat tougher.
- added weight and potential spots for moisture to be trapped.
- we just got our transmission rebuilt and most insulation have a reflective surface that would reflect that much more heat onto the transmission.
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T3TRIS

1987 Syncro GL converted to poptop
- 1994 Subaru EJ22
- Transaxle rebuild
- 215/75-R15
- Mexico paint job
- Front end rebuild

Fun off-roading
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 4:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Some folks have postulated that the Insulation can reduce the amount of unburned hydrocarbons departing the fuel tank that may overwhelm the charcoal canister under some condition. Like if your tank had only a gallon of gas in it on a 105F day.

Insulation could provide some fire resistance, a delay, a little more time to fight the fire. Shocked

insulation makes the tank bigger and thus reduces the space for air to circulate around the transmission. If not removing all, I’d at least remove the insulation near the forward top of the transmission, where 4th gear is to improve air flow in that area.
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EJ25, Peloquin diff, locker, transaxle oil cooler/filtration system
....KTMs, GasGas, and a Stumpjumper
Gear oil is like underwear.
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T3TRIS
Samba Member


Joined: October 30, 2017
Posts: 230
Location: Portland, OR
T3TRIS is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:39 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

Ok! I definitely have a lot to share for when I finally get the time to do so. But here's what our system looks like so far:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Now I need to button up the transmission oil pump/filter system. One challenge is mounting that oil pump. I made a little prototype to see if I could fit the pump onto the cylinder head using the existing M6 threaded holes (passenger side of the van, driver side of the EJ22 engine). Thanks for the inspiration Sodo!
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

This is basically my first metal fabrication project by the way! I'm going to redo the bracket and make it a little flatter (not using u-channel) and using beefier aluminum.
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Guillaume and Jennifer

T3TRIS

1987 Syncro GL converted to poptop
- 1994 Subaru EJ22
- Transaxle rebuild
- 215/75-R15
- Mexico paint job
- Front end rebuild

Fun off-roading
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tencentlife
Samba Member


Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 9995
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro rattle grinding whine noise. Bad VC, transaxle, diff? Reply with quote

I would be wary of mounting an electric motor vertically, most motors use bearings that are not designed to take any substantial thrust loading so the shafts have to be on a horizontal axis. Easy to correct in this case.
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See innovative Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/

Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

Hmmm, provincial much?:
Quote:
"I wouldn't go much on whats written on the samba, they love a "theory" and rarely ask any Europeans what is actually correct."
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