Leaking Master Cylinder/Reservoir Or...?

[coqcitywesty]

So my !991 Westy has been under covered storage (my open carport) over the past couple of months and I went out to take some measurements for some dash switches and noticed that I had a small ‘puddle’ of clear, somewhat greasy fluid collecting on the driver’s side floor mat that was dripping from the base of the steering column cover. Thinking that the only fluid-containing item above the steering wheel column would be the master cylinder/reservoir AND in advance of pulling the dash apart, thought I would inquire here as to causes/culprits. Yes, we have had some sub-zero temperatures of late, but nothing that could potentially split anything. Thoughts/comments? Anyone else ever experience this? Any/all insights are welcomed.

[Ahwahnee]

Your description sounds like the not uncommon leaky master cylinder.

Remove the column cover, clean things up and observe.

Seals often show the first sign of leaking in very cold weather.

[coqcitywesty]

Curses - if in fact that is the case, but thanks. I will tear things down and check for the source. The previous owner had replaced the master cylinder three years earlier, so I was kinda hoping for something else. Should I think it odd that there was no evidence of leaks while it was being driven, or does the cold temperatures simply shrink the seals such that they start to drip?

[SCM]

Don’t panic yet. The rubber grommets that hold the brake fluid reservoir onto the master cylinder can get old and leak during cold weather. It’s a super easy and cheap fix. Unfortunately, you can’t assume new grommets were installed when the new master cylinder was.
_________________
'91 Westfalia GL Automatic (GTA "Turbo" Rebuild w/Peloquin) and 2.3L GoWesty Engine

[coqcitywesty]

PO’ed that I noticed it late in the day or would have tackled it in the daylight..... In review of other previous posts on the same topic (yes, I should have checked first), the ‘fix’ seems pretty straightforward - I need to simply move to a warmer climate . I will monitor for now and likely order/replace the MC with a new OEM one when things warm up a tad.

[Phaedrus]

I have to say, the leading cause of brake system failure that I see in the shop is people who don't drive their cars enough. If you're going to store your vehicle for months + at a time, be prepared to redo old (even new) brake components. Most common is drum brake cylinders, next is master (calipers almost never fail via leaks in my experience). The rubber in 'em just doesn't like sitting still for long stretches. If you want these components to last, start, drive, and stop your vehicle for at least 15min once a week. My 2c.
_________________
1986 WBX (Tin Top Camper)

[coqcitywesty]

Understood - many thx to all for the insights.
_________________
1991 Westfalia EJ251, 1972 Volvo 1800 ES

[valvecovergasket]

have a peak at the wiring for the brake light switches as well... i noticed some "moisture" along those wires and found a, what appears to be not uncommon, leak through the brake light switches on our van

a few $ and 30 or so minutes later i had 2 new switches in there and all was well
you can do the job without really losing any fluid either.

worth having a look at those as well while youre poking around
_________________
MegaSquirt resource - SpitfireEFI.com

gone, but not forgotten: '83 tdi westy - swap thread

[Ahwahnee]

In case you haven't opened things up yet, know that you can do most of it by just undoing the 4 screws that hold the dash pod and the speedo cable & the switches on the left side - then bungee the whole thing out of your way:

You can examine everything and even replace the switches like that, though for replacing the master you might as well remove that pod completely

[SCM]

[coqcitywesty]

Again - thx for the insights. While the MC is definitely in an odder-than-normal location, I have pulled the dash apart a few times so pretty comfortable with the process. That said and upon reflection, admittedly shocked that a few day/nights of frosty temperatures can impact 'modern' automotive seals - it was actually colder last winter with no issues. While I do try to exercise my summer vehicles over the winter, the recent brine roadway sprays keep them locked away. If nothing else, it will give me additional ammo to secure funding from SWMBO to enclose the carport and create a toasty winter workspace.....
_________________
1991 Westfalia EJ251, 1972 Volvo 1800 ES

[Gnarlodious]

You may have the same breakage I had because it was a mystery.

WARNING: The longer brake fluid saturates your subfloor mat the less likely it will be to clean up the mess! Pull out the carpet and mat immediately and clean it preferably with warm soapy water. Given enough time the brake fluid will cause your mat to decompose and paint to peel off the floor metal. Especially bad in warm weather.

Mine was leaking from behind the clutch master cylinder. The fluid comes down from the brake reservior through a stiff braided tube into a plastic nipple BEHIND the cylinder. The nipple cracks from the stiff tube constantly flexing and drains down under the floor mat. The leakage may be intermittent because it only leaks while you are pushing down on the clutch pedal. This because the stiff rubber braided tube makes a 90º turn to go upward, thus it presses against wall with each pedal push.

I was able to replace the nipple with some effort without taking the cylinder out. A stiff rubber grommet holds it in. I used a more flexible modern vinyl tube which has a sharper curve thus not getting squeezed between the front wall and pedal shaft. Hope this is not your problem but its definitely a weak point for the Vanagon.

[coqcitywesty]

^^^ Mine is an auto, so no clutch slave issues. Mat has been pulled and a drip catcher put in place, until I can get to it, likely this weekend. Thx!
_________________
1991 Westfalia EJ251, 1972 Volvo 1800 ES

[Tbob]

That moving to a warmer climate worked for my 1986. I replaced master cylinder and reservoir sealing grommets several years ago and although the brakes worked fine, everytime the temperature dipped into the teens or colder, I was rewarded/punished with a puddle of brake fluid on the floor mat and an empty reservoir. Investigation revealed that the grommets were leaking, so I replaced them. Next winter, same thing. Changed vendors of grommets twice, same thing. Maybe the master cylinder was machined wrong, I do not know, as until this very moment I assumed(you know what they say about assumed) that with the fantastic quality of replacement parts, here was another one that didn't actually work.
Well, last year I moved the 1986 to Pensacola, Fl., where it can dip into the 20's every winter but rarely into the teens. No leaks this winter. And winter is over here, compared to up north. Bring on the humidity.
So my conclusion, which may be flawed and half baked, is that the rubber of the grommets shrinks in extreamley cold weather, and allows the van to wet itself. I think it was the vans way of saying "get me out of here, it's too cold"!
P.S., my 1985 Westy, same brake system but (I have never changed the master cylinder in the 5 years I have owned it), doesn't leak a drop, still garaged in Southern Indiana.
_________________
1969 Deluxe, owned since 1973
1973 Westfalia, owned since 1983
1980 Westfalia, watercooled conversion
1985 Westfalia, stock!
1986 Westfakia, Audi I-4 conversion
A couple of trucks and a couple of Jeeps

[Tbob]

That moving to a warmer climate worked for my 1986. I replaced master cylinder and reservoir sealing grommets several years ago and although the brakes worked fine, everytime the temperature dipped into the teens or colder, I was rewarded/punished with a puddle of brake fluid on the floor mat and an empty reservoir. Investigation revealed that the grommets were leaking, so I replaced them. Next winter, same thing. Changed vendors of grommets twice, same thing. Maybe the master cylinder was machined wrong, I do not know, as until this very moment I assumed(you know what they say about assumed) that with the fantastic quality of replacement parts, here was another one that didn't actually work.
Well, last year I moved the 1986 to Pensacola, Fl., where it can dip into the 20's every winter but rarely into the teens. No leaks this winter. And winter is over here, compared to up north. Bring on the humidity.
So my conclusion, which may be flawed and half baked, is that the rubber of the grommets shrinks in extreamley cold weather, and allows the van to wet itself. I think it was the vans way of saying "get me out of here, it's too cold"!
P.S., my 1985 Westy, same brake system but (I have never changed the master cylinder in the 5 years I have owned it), doesn't leak a drop, still garaged in Southern Indiana.
_________________
1969 Deluxe, owned since 1973
1973 Westfalia, owned since 1983
1980 Westfalia, watercooled conversion
1985 Westfalia, stock!
1986 Westfakia, Audi I-4 conversion
A couple of trucks and a couple of Jeeps

[Tbob]

That moving to a warmer climate worked for my 1986. I replaced master cylinder and reservoir sealing grommets several years ago and although the brakes worked fine, everytime the temperature dipped into the teens or colder, I was rewarded/punished with a puddle of brake fluid on the floor mat and an empty reservoir. Investigation revealed that the grommets were leaking, so I replaced them. Next winter, same thing. Changed vendors of grommets twice, same thing. Maybe the master cylinder was machined wrong, I do not know, as until this very moment I assumed(you know what they say about assumed) that with the fantastic quality of replacement parts, here was another one that didn't actually work.
Well, last year I moved the 1986 to Pensacola, Fl., where it can dip into the 20's every winter but rarely into the teens. No leaks this winter. And winter is over here, compared to up north. Bring on the humidity.
So my conclusion, which may be flawed and half baked, is that the rubber of the grommets shrinks in extreamley cold weather, and allows the van to wet itself. I think it was the vans way of saying "get me out of here, it's too cold"!
P.S., my 1985 Westy, same brake system but (I have never changed the master cylinder in the 5 years I have owned it), doesn't leak a drop, still garaged in Southern Indiana.
_________________
1969 Deluxe, owned since 1973
1973 Westfalia, owned since 1983
1980 Westfalia, watercooled conversion
1985 Westfalia, stock!
1986 Westfakia, Audi I-4 conversion
A couple of trucks and a couple of Jeeps

[bobhill8]

It's the annual drip time, and I am wondering if anyone HAS had success with some type of gasket maker (permatex or other) to supplement the feeble grommets on the brake MC which seemingly must be replaced each spring in Northern climes. As the Arctic air approaches, I am sure my drip will be enhanced, but I already have a thick rag in place.
_________________
1986 Westy
1971 Squareback

[hardway]

In my experience The brake master cylinder reservoir grommets do eventually leak in European vehicles. I use a pressure bleeder on European brake systems on a regular basis and have done so for decades. If they are going to leak they will leak then. I have never had one leak at 10 years of age or less. I do replace them prophylactically on older vehicles before pressure bleeding. No sealing paste is necessary. I am talking 20 year old + vehicles.

If people are experienceing premature failure the most likely explanation is crap parts. There are only four or five versions of that part on 80s/90s Euro vehicles. I just don't understand why people buy crap parts when the real ones are still available. The old Haynes repair manuals would have referred to this practice as "A false economy.".

The original equipment suppliers for these parts on the T3 are ATE, FTE maybe one or two others. There are many part numbers but a couple that work are 357 611 817 and 000 09 50 65. The ATE number is 03-3304-2208-1.

The same logic holds for the brake master cylinder and other hydraulic cylinders. Why would you risk your life, your van and the lives and property of innocent bystanders with a knock-off part. All of these parts are still available. As a group we should encourage these OE suppliers to continue to support our antique vehicles by putting our money where our mouth is. The people that make and sell crap parts only do it because their customers are shortsighted. Encouraging wasting materials and time is at a minimum inefficient. Other adjectives also apply.

[valvecovergasket]

[bobhill8]