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Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth
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AaronJ1970
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:43 pm    Post subject: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Hi gang,

First time owner of a VW as of yesterday.

Bought myself a project buggy with a kombi 002 trans.

I'm having an issue getting second and fourth. First is good, reverse seems OK (does not feel all the way in, but holds) and third feels like its fine.

I've tried loosening the shift plate in neutral and second, jiggling it around, etc to no avail. I've also tried pushing the shift plate as far forward and back as it will go, also to no avail (other than losing first with one of those options).

I havent checked, but was told it has a new shift rod bushing.

I can also see it has fairly new nylon (red) shift rod coupling bushes.

Any thoughts on what to check next?

From 1st/2nd to 3rd/4th how much lateral movement should I see at the shift rod at the trans? I reckon I'm seeing about 15-20mm with the coupling starting up against the trans/nose cone housing in 1st.

Thanks,
Aaron
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tripicana
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

There's like a plastic ball/bushing inside the nose cone, I bet it's bad.
It's been forever since I fixed mine, don't really remember much, someone will have more details...
Those red urathane couplers are crap, but probably not the problem right now, unless it's splitting and sloppy.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:51 am    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Yeah, if all of the shift rod linkage is good/intact, I would look inside the front nosecone. The plastic ball mentioned has a steel replacement you can get. It sits in the rounded portion of the section in the lower left corner of the first pic. Shift your trans into neutral before taking things apart. Pics from the gallery from Gumboguy.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:01 am    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

The bracket that holds the shuttle and pin assembly in gkeeton's pic is probably broken or the pin has slid out of place...
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AaronJ1970
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Thanks guys. i suspect its off to the mechanics (no time to learn now).

One thing though... the shifter that is in there is an unknown. It came with an Empi, that I just threw on quickly. I did not fiddle too much, but with the Empi I have 1, 3 and 4, still no 2 and reverse is just missing (can just hear the cogs trying to make contact).

So it seems 1, 3, 4 and R are all there with the right adjustment, and 2 is the issue.

Does that change any of the above suggestions?

If I get a spare second over the weekend I'm going to confirm the bush and coupling are new and installed right/tight.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Maybe try shifting the trans with the shift rod disconnected, and manually turn the engine over with a wrench to see what gears you are actually in. I would think your reverse you are shifting into is actually 2nd, and you’re missing reverse. Another thing is a buggy’s shift rod usually needs shortened, and has a threaded adjustable section back by the trans used to shorten the rod. Maybe the adjuster needs rotated slightly to get all the gears. Like you mentioned, check the bushings first.
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AaronJ1970
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Thanks G.

Def had reverse with the first shifter, as used it to back the car out of the garage! Only lost it then I put the Empi on. I've actually also got and older orig shifter to try after I do the other checks.

I've also checked with motor running and have have the right kind of movement in 1, 3, 4 and R when the clutch comes out.

Buggy is a LWB/standard type 1 chassis, so not a modified shift rod.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

That’s a cool buggy!
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Thanks Jeff. I think so Wink

Just a thought...

... I've been messing around with this issue again today. I tried 3x different shifters and different positions for all, still never able to get 2nd and some limited 4th. Reverse is hit or miss.

Issues with the trans aside, it seems to me like the shift rod socket (where the shifter ball goes in, see photo) is just a bit too far forward. This makes it difficult/impossible for any shifter to get to those 3x gears (i.e. 2, 4 and R).

With all 3x shifter I got the best results pushing the shifter and plate as far forward as possible.

When in neutral, the socket/end of the rod are very near to the front of the shifter hole.

Given the buggy is based on a 1962 beetle, it has a kombi 002 trans, slotted rod tube, could there be an issue of length going on due to trans position, shift rod length or the trans-rod coupling???

Does it look like the trans bearing/seal is sitting more forward than normal (trans moved forward some how)???

In the photos below, its in neutral.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Wohooo! You figured through it!

As I'm sure you're suspecting, neutral should in fact result in the shift cup being centered in the opening. And since 2nd and 4th are actually when the shift cup moves forward (and the shift knob rearward) those are gears you'd have trouble with.

So you don't have proof that it ever worked... you probably just need to shorten the shift rod what looks like 1/4"-3/8"

Also that style of shift coupler is one of the better aftermarket types. Kind of a Chinese HD copy of a type of stock one.

I see two options. The super redneck way where you woller out the slots in the shifter plate/mount so you can move it forward more than would otherwise be allowed or the real way where you shorten the shift rod.

If I can convince you to take your transmission out I can walk you through how to improve shift quality and make the trans guts a little more reliable by adding a thrust plate. All by just removing the nosecone.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Hey Jimmy.

Its the scientist in me (aquatic biologist) Very Happy

Seriously though, it just didn't make sense that I couldn't get those lower gears.

Of course it does not exclude the trans still having it own issues.

I don't have proof it worked, BUT, the 002 trans and IRS install was done 2x owners ago and I know both drove the car fine (have seen photos). So it seems very odd that there's now an issue (hence asking whether the trans may have shifted forward somehow).

The project is going to happen in two stages. First, do the minimum to get it one the road and registered. Then once legal, do a more detailed rebuilt.

Re your solutions....

... I dont want to cut the tunnel.

What is involved in shortening the rod? I assume cut and weld? Obviously I'll need to work out the total throw of the trans shifter and reduce to suit the end result of the cup in the centre of the tunnel hole.

Are there varying length rods over the years? Could that be an option? I.e. take mine out, work out the length and see if there isn't one slightly smaller?

Will def hit you up re the trans mods at a later stage.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:18 am    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Well... since that is a standard pan, the stock shift rod should work.

I did just think of something else though, since you alluded to the possibility of it having worked before. IF the shift shuttle bracket inside the transmission did break, forward is the direction the shift rod would end up favoring, just like your picture shows. I wonder if it's worth a peek inside the kombi box. It's a very common problem with a relatively easy fix. The thrust plate addition and the steel shift ball are two cheap and essentially talent-free additions to do while you're in there as well. I'm not implying you don't have any talent, it's just that you won't have to use any.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Thanks Jimmy.

I reckon I can see that the last owner, must have lost the gears at some pint, as I can see all manner of things to try and fix it (i.e. no coupling, new bush, buggy came with a range of freshly greased shifter, etc. The explanation to me was "its all fine and just a bit fiddly to get 2nd"!!! Seems it may be in the nose cone as you and other first suggested.

What I plan to try next, before the tools come out propper, is detach the shifter and rod at the coupling, so that I can gear select at the nose cone. If I still cant find 2/4/R, then I'll have to go down the path you're alluding to.

So on that... no way around it, the motor and trans need to come out yes?

Any chance you can outline or point me to the process and what needs doing (re the steel ball and thrust plate)?

Thanks,
Aaron.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Double post.

Last edited by AaronJ1970 on Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Oh yeah, once you pull the engine and trans (if you take the shift linkage stuff off to convince yourself you need to go deeper) I can walk you through the internal shifter stuff quickly. I've rebuilt about 5 of these boxes , the most recent with a little machine work I did and different ratios. Honestly, once you take the nosecone off of the transmission and have a look at how it works you probably won't need my help.

If you decide you are going to pull it, take pictures of what you see when you take the nosecone off and I can explain everything. There's probably 8 bolts or so that hold the nosecone to the intermediate gear case. That's all you need to take out to get the nosecone off.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...tart=0url]

Look in the middle of that page to see some of how it works. It's only missing the ball and hockey stick. There's not much to it.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Give the coupler a push and pull vertically to see if the nose cone bushings are good. Then I would rotate the coupler all the way to left or right and then pull out, one way (counterclockwise at the front of the car looking back will be reverse) and then once you feel it click see how the coupler feels for movement in and out/ up and down. If it can rotate a lot while it's in reverse, the shift ball inside is bad. Or the bracket can be broken as well, they do funny things when they're cracked.

If it feels really good back there I would start to move forward for slop and why it won't shift.

Some also place the trans into reverse manually and then set the shifter into reverse and bolt it down.

You might have a couple issues going on at once that need tracked down.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Thanks and yep, will take another good look later this week (work crazy for end of year).

One thing... if you look at my photo of the coupling, the trans bearing sits a long way forward compared to ANY similar photo I can find. In fact it looks to sit forward about the same amount the shift rod cup is sitting too far forward.

I am wondering is the whole trans is sitting a bit too far forward. Possible? Should i check the trans mounts for having shifted and/or having some adjustability, while I'm checking the other things?

Cheers,
Aaron.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

I have an EMPI shifter on my bus.

The reverse lockout plate is weakly spot welded on and falls out (I do have a habit to shift down to second HARD) This makes one side of the 'gate' vanish.

The actual rectangular slot in the shifter that is integral with its structure, and which is the equivalent of the shifter plate in a stock shift setup can get worn.

The result is the shift lever can move too far left and right, so it "misses" the gears in the box, even though the gearbox nosecone coupler (urethane blocks in a welded EMPI shifter cage) and front shift rod bushing are new/correct.


On mine I ended up welding a strip of steel so it overlapped the slot in the 'shifter plate' by about 50 thousandths. On the other side, I had a replacement reverse lockout gate welded in.

This limited the left to right movement of the shifter to match the gearbox.

I then went for a drive with a small hammer and a 1/2" / 13mm socket spanner and kept loosening the bolts and tapping the shifter base around until it shifted nicely.
Some of the adjustment was to do with rotating the shifter slightly as well as moving forwards/backwards and sideways.
After some time tapping and driving, it became reliable, and has remained so for years.
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AaronJ1970
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:28 am    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Hey guys,

Away on a little holiday, so back to it soon.

Question... how far should the shift tube/leaver move or travel between say 1-2 or 3-4?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy/002 Trans - no second/fourth Reply with quote

Your photo above shows the coupler in neutral, 1st and 3rd will have the coupler pretty much touch the bushing in the nose cone.

R, 2nd and 4th, will extend the hockey stick away from the nose cone.

R is it's own rail, 1st-2nd is on a rail, 3rd and 4th are on a rail as well. I used to pay attention between the rails, I don't anymore. I do remember reverse being a little different, but can't remember off the top of my head.

Standing at the front of the car, the transaxle shifts like the car. Counter clockwise and back or out will put it in reverse. 1-2 is a pain to shift on an 002 through the nose cone....clockwise all the way will be 3rd and 4th. Push in for 3rd and pull out for 4th.
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