Livin’ and learnin’ with GW’s lift springs and Fox shocks...

[jimf909]

Hi All,

I’m guessing I’ve read every related thread 3x minimum but I’m gonna start a new thread.

A few years ago, I replaced the oem springs (brown stripe) and Bilstein HD (not XHD) shocks with Schwenk 2WD springs and Rancho shocks. I loved the improvements in the ride, esp. with the Rancho set at the highest dampening. Even with the high top the van tracked solidly in cross winds at 70 mph.

The problem is that the Schwenk springs either sagged or just didn’t provide the 17+ inch ride height suggested (The van was down to 15 5/8” at the driver’s front, possibly due to camp gear and 150 ah of battery, and 16 3/8” on the other corners) and a Rancho shock was blown.

I replaced the springs with GW 1 1/2” lift springs and the shocks with GW Fox shocks.

Unfortunately, I think I hate the ride. The noticeable difference is that at Hwy speeds a lane change maneuver will cause the van react noticeably, especially on rebound where before it would remain relatively stable. It also seems to be more sensitive to cross winds. This is in three days of driving.

I’ve read some posts where folks love how their van corners well with the lift springs but that’s not my experience. Cornering seems to require more adjustments to react to the van bouncing around. It just doesn’t seem as stable as it was.

All the suspension and steering rack bushings have been recently replaced. The tires are fairly new Nokian WRC3 215/65 R16s, 40 psi front, 44 psi rear.

Is it just me or have others found the ride with GW springs and Fox 2WD shocks to be a bit soft and wallowy (official suspension terminology ).

PMs gladly accepted if you don’t want to share here. Thanks.

Here’s a pic of the van with the new suspension (also, that may be theadventureneverends in the ferry in the distance ):

_________________
- Jim

[Gnarlodious]

I put on the GW springs and it was so bad I went back to stock with spacer pads. My friend put them on his Doka, he says it rides great fully loaded. I guess they were a little too stiff for the tintop.
_________________
Vanagon ’83 diesel AAZ w/Giles injection, 5spd 4.57R&P+TBD and a '78 diesel Rabbit

[E1]

Jim, what you describe is just what we got -- though with the GW revalved Bilsteins. I suspect your issue has nothing to do with the Fox shocks, but don't know what mods were done to those by GW.

The only way I could make it handle was with lots of air in the tires, though I do that now with our Schwenks, too.

I was never under the impression Schwenks were supposed to be 17". We're at about 16" now, weighing about 5,300. We're about to drop about 300 lbs. and it'll be interesting to see what that does, but once our weight is final we plan to put spacers in to get a level 17" -- hopefully.

My GW lifts were anything but stiff, the travel was too long for their weight-bearing ability in my estimation. We routinely bottomed into the front wheelwells, chewed up wheel lips, and cut bits from a new set of KO2s.

We've been testing the Schwenks and just today went over some rocks that would have absolutely bottomed out the GW springs before. Now it doesn't bottom at all, even though the average ride height is a little lower.

Sorry you're in this bed, especially since it's not a cheap date. They're warranted to not sag if you choose to go back to Schwenks. We lost 2" with the GWs, while the Schwenks "settled" maybe a quarter inch in the first few weeks and not one bit since.

We have Konis now but imagine that Fox is still a tricker option. I don't think yours is a shock issue.

Frustrating deal, Best of Luck. 👍🏼
_________________
‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman

[levi]

The difference between us is that you only *think* that you hate the gowesty 1-1/2" lift springs.

Note that I have no experience with the zero lift, so I cannot speak of them, and, I had no issue with the rear lift spring (I'm still sitting at 18" in the rear).

I suspect that a good chunk of the cornering aspect that I hated was because of the unloading effect.

I had, I believe, 3 coils of the springs in contact with each other (the progressive section of the springs I guess), so when I went through a turn not only did the outside front compress, as you would expect, but the inside front would unload way more than I would expect.
Not very friendly.

Combine that with the sagging of almost 2" and I feel like a real sucker buying in 3 times.

Btw, I had bilstein HD on there, definitely not enough compression or rebound damping going on there, which magnified the problem.

Happy memories.

I THINK (I'm certainly not an expert) that those soft springs would be okay if you could pair them with a serious shock where you can dial in the necessary damping for both compression and rebound, and of course if they didn't end up sagging below where I had originally started.

I hope you find the balance you're looking for.
_________________
One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way

https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40

[AZ Landshaper]

I think E1 commented a while a go that the 1.5 lift springs made the van react like it was on pogo sticks (correct me if Im wrong). I can relate with that. Its taken me a bit of time to get use to the pogo stick feeling especially while cornering. The first month was a hair raising experience. Im not gonna comment on my shocks for fear of an uproar and unwanted criticism. Lets just say their not on the list we all hear when shocks are discussed.
Ill pony up some benjamines here soon to upgrade those. Guess I wont run to the Fox. Maybe Ill try Rancho??
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Support Small Business.

-------------------------------------------------------
85 Weekender w/ EJ22
Previously
64, 71, 72, 73, 76, 81, 84, 85 & 87 Campmobiles and Westfalias
and a 67 bug.

[shagginwagon83]

I talked to Burley about this and he says the reason for the pogo sticks is not from the GW springs, but the design of the fox shocks internally. Maybe if they had the reservoir like the syncros on the front then maybe it would fix it? I also told Burley I'd be interested in a 2wd kit if he develops one.
_________________
Brandon
"Jo Ann" - '83.5 Westfalia EJ22e w/Peloquin
Instagram @joannthevan

[davevickery]

Jim, you would probably love the stiffer Moog 5660s up front with or without a small spacer.

[thatbaldwinlife]

I know this is not Fox related but I have the Moog 5660 and Rancho 9000's in front with GoWesty 1.5" rear springs and Bilstein 5165 remote reservoir rear shocks in back. I wasn't willing to spend the money on the Fox shocks as I wasn't impressed with the ride for the cost.

So far this setup has been great. My GoWesty rear springs only have about 1.5 coils that are in contact at ride height. Minimal sagging so far.

IMG_8259 by Nathan Baldwin, on Flickr

nate
_________________
1987 Westy
Insta: @Thatbaldwinlife
Vanagon Adventure and DIY videos:
That Baldwin Life YouTube Channel

[IdahoDoug]

This is interesting reading. As a former vehicle developer, the suspension is a place for serious engineering, precise measurement by accurate sensors (vs seat of the pants guessing) and a lot of time to sort things out and settle on spring rates and damping rates.

Often people who buy aftermarket suspensions simply "like it" because they spent big bucks. But what I'm hearing here are some honest reactions with nothing held back. Well done. Keep that debate going on an open basis and the better systems will get their proper respect.
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[fxr]

I didn't read "had a full wheel alignment done" after all the front suspension work...

Noting that's it's damn hard to find a place that will actually do a Vanagon alignment properly.
_________________
Jim Crowther
1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
Vespa GTS 300

[drj434343]

I have the GW 1.5" lift springs front and back, and have paired those with both the regular Bilstein HD shocks, and then with the re-valved XHD shocks.

For the most part, I agree that with the GW lift springs, the ride feels more bouncy and "wallowy". This was especially true paired with the regular HD shocks. GW website warnings are very true, handling characteristics scared me with just the normal soft HD shocks. Now, with XHD shocks, the ride is very much improved, and the bouncy feeling as well as body roll are greatly reduced.

I have not yet measured any sag in my springs after 2 years installed. I measure about every 3 months.

Nothing about the handling with increased ride height springs surprised me. I am significantly raising a 5400 lb short wheel base camper van to heights beyond the original suspension design. I'm also over GVWR. Frankly, I'm amazed it handles this well after all those changes.

I wouldn't trade my 1.5" lift for better handling at this point, as the lift is useful for how I utilize the van. With XHD shocks, it doesn't feel dangerous to drive. However, I do drive slowly and cautiously, and at least double following distances compared with other cars. Part of my satisfaction with this setup is likely based on my expectations for handling, which were low.

[purplepeopleeater]

Jim, I would get another alignment done if you haven't already....I don't have an alignment rack in my shop (I wish!) and getting alignments done correctly has been such a battle, I would put weight up front in the van (Ie your body weight and maybe half of your passengers) when I did this it changed how erratic my van handled... but eventually as I loaded up my bulkhead with crap and filled tanks the issue came back.. get a lifetime alignment package at firestone, it will pay for itself in a year

[E1]

Yep. I truly believe there is no such thing as an accurate alignment unless being done with the exact weight in the exact places for a travel preference or at least the majority of a vehicle's uses.
_________________
‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman

[Multiman mv]

I hear what you’re saying about the gowesty springs and fox shocks. I had a little bit of trouble until I added two more pieces to the equation. The first was a stiffer sway bar (addco) and Burleys upper control arms. I couldn’t keep my front end aligned until i added Burleys uca’s. The addition of the sway bar definitly helped to make the van feel less top heavy. It has been one of my favorite improvements made to date. Maybe you would consider adding these to your van before switching shocks and springs? Then again, shocks and springs inspire very personal reactions from those who have to sit above them every day. Sucks when something doesn’t feel “right” especially after spending a pretty penny on them. I hope you find a good solution to your issue.

I just noticed that you have nokians. I’m sure not all nokians are the same but recently i switched from bfg all terrains to nokian entyres and i hated them because they felt spongy and made my van feel more top heavy. I went back to the bfgs and love how stable they feel. Maybe a stiffer tire would help with the cornering issue for you also?

[owokie]

[kamzcab86]

My parents' '89 Westy has GW lift springs + Fox shocks + 16" BFG tires (edit: it also received a full pro alignment job). Dad seems to like the combo thus far, but not a significant amount of miles have been put on the van since installation late last year. Van will be driven on a few lengthy road trips this year, so we'll see.

My '90 has had GW's zero-lift springs + Bilstein XHD + 15" Conti Vanco4 tires for several years now. No complaints, other than the Bilsteins getting a tad softer as they age. Compared to what was originally on the van, it's been vastly improved. But come shock replacement time, I don't think I'd do Bilstein again. And still need to get a T3 Technique anti-sway bar.
_________________
~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子

[E1]

You'll love the bar, Kam. Even off-road.
_________________
‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman

[AZ Landshaper]

I’ve got a rebuilt suspension and new tires and a complete alignment done by an alignment shop in town known for good work. My tires are rated for the van. There’s a bounce to the 1.5” springs. I had the mood 5660s on my last rig and the ride was superior to what’s under there now. Unfortunately I was looking to match a ride height found on the 1985 vanagon which is known to be quite a bit higher than most stock heights. 1.5 gw front and back.
I might return to the moogs. They are pretty inexpensive by comparison.
I think I’ll upgrade the shocks before anything else. Certainly can’t hurt to try out the ranchos.
_________________
Support Small Business.

-------------------------------------------------------
85 Weekender w/ EJ22
Previously
64, 71, 72, 73, 76, 81, 84, 85 & 87 Campmobiles and Westfalias
and a 67 bug.

[bobbyblack]

Jim,

Nice looking rig, for sure.

One thing I know is that if you are looking for a better ride, you DO NOT lift the rig. But, I see you've got a scenario that seems to be wanting it lifted a tad. Those larger diameter tires for instance.

Hope you find what fits you well eventually. I'd try finding a set of OEM or original Carat springs and use the stock shocks and the T3 bar, and going to stock diameter tires. Width matters too, btw.
_________________
'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch

[jimf909]