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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7402 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: I think I hate GW lift springs and GW’s Fox shocks..PROGRESS |
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Hello,
Thanks to everyone for the helpful responses and good wishes. I'll be posting updates on progress.
This van does have the T3 anti-sway bar and heavy duty end-links.
This may be a better description than "wallowy": At low speed the suspension is just fine. It has reasonably harsh response to abrupt bumps and is reasonably level going around corners (although it seems to lean more than with the previous setup). At 60 mph or above it starts to get irritating in that the when making a lane change at slightly more than casual lane change the body leans outward more than I prefer and then leans surprisingly to the inside on rebound. It reacts far more than the previous set up. It's similar, but not as extreme, as not having a front anti-sway bar.
IdahoDoug wrote: |
This is interesting reading. As a former vehicle developer, the suspension is a place for serious engineering, precise measurement by accurate sensors (vs seat of the pants guessing) and a lot of time to sort things out and settle on spring rates and damping rates.
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Multiman mv wrote: |
Then again, shocks and springs inspire very personal reactions from those who have to sit above them every day. Sucks when something doesn’t feel “right” especially after spending a pretty penny on them. |
Great points. Agreed. Suspension is mostly a list of compromises and deciding what one wants to compromise the least on. My priority is stable handling at 70 mph and in cross winds. I had that fairly well dialed before I started futzing with it.
I'll be calling GW to see what their response is to my observations.
fxr wrote: |
I didn't read "had a full wheel alignment done" after all the front suspension work...
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purplepeopleeater wrote: |
Jim, I would get another alignment done if you haven't already....I did this it changed how erratic my van handled... |
Busted. I didn't get an alignment done before making these comments. I had an alignment done yesterday (see below) and the van seemed to be better on a 10 mile freeway drive. It still rolls and overreacts but the erratic response seems to have improved (final verdict to come).
The tech mentioned that it had too much caster and I said to leave it like that for a test-drive. I'm going to bring it back to bring the caster into spec because too much caster can lift the inside and drop the outside and lead to more roll.
shagginwagon83 wrote: |
I talked to Burley about this and he says the reason for the pogo sticks is not from the GW springs, but the design of the fox shocks internally. Maybe if they had the reservoir like the syncros on the front then maybe it would fix it? I also told Burley I'd be interested in a 2wd kit if he develops one. |
GW directed Fox on the damping rates to get the ride they wanted (similar to the Bilstein XHD) which is fine. It just may not be the ride I wanted.
The external reservoir increases oil or gas capacity which improves performance as the shock heats up, e.g. when going down a washboard road. It doesn't affect the shock response in what I'm describing. At least that how I believe the shock absorber mystery works.
The key feature that the Syncro shocks is adjustable compression damping.
davevickery wrote: |
Jim, you would probably love the stiffer Moog 5660s up front with or without a small spacer. |
I've read your great posts on these springs and was leaning to the Moog 5658. That was actually my first choice the GW spring squirrel caught my attention.
bobbyblack wrote: |
Jim,
Nice looking rig, for sure.
One thing I know is that if you are looking for a better ride, you DO NOT lift the rig. But, I see you've got a scenario that seems to be wanting it lifted a tad. Those larger diameter tires for instance.
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Busted again. Part of this dilemma begin when I went to slightly bigger 215/65 R16 WRC3 tires v. the previous 216/60 R16 WRG3 tires that did not hit the fender (front fender damage from the current tires can be seen in the photo) prompting me to seek some additional height. I'd been resisting lifting it for a long time but fell prey to all that pretty clearance.
Once again, there are no suspension changes that don't affect other parts of the system.
Thanks again, everyone.
p.s. The van's other driver just came home from a first drive around town and commented that the van felt "tighter and more solid". I'm looking forward to hearing her comments after a highway drive. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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fxr Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2014 Posts: 2300 Location: Bay area CA
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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: I may hate GW lift springs and GW’s Fox shocks..PROGRESS |
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If the caster gets altered then the camber and lastly toe-in will get altered again too. _________________ Jim Crowther
1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
Vespa GTS 300 |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7402 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: I may hate GW lift springs and GW’s Fox shocks..PROGRESS |
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Thanks. I'm going to ask them to bring everything w/in spec and then go from there.
I'll experiment with tire pressures a bit and the next step will likely be swapping the Rancho shocks back in for comparison.
I expect this will take some ongoing experimentation. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7402 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:08 pm Post subject: Re: I may (not) hate GW’s lift springs and Fox shocks...PROGRESS |
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Thanks again for all the helpful comments.
Progress notes after 500 miles:
- Had the alignment (caster) brought into spec
- Balanced all four wheels
- Weighed the van twice for curiosity sake
- Chatted with GW to learn about design intent behind this suspension but spent far more time trying to convince them that I actually have 1.5” lift springs installed - they were convinced I had zero lift springs installed because I only have an 18” axle center to wheel arch measurement and they don’t believe that can be true (it was a difficult conversation). I’m still hoping to learn from them what their design criteria were for designing this system so I can better understand what to expect. Frustrating, but I’m hoping to put that behind us and hear more insights from GW soon.
- Bringing the caster into spec lightened the steering effort, did not lose straight line stability (as the tech suggested it might) but also didn’t noticeably reduce rise of the inside or the drop of the outside of the van when changing direction (as would happen at least in theory).
- The wheel balance was needed more than expected, but the tire rotation made it more noticeable. During this work the tires were rotated and the steering wheel began shaking. The balancing made a noticeable improvement.
What now?
After putting 500 miles on the van I hate the GW suspension a lot less. The alignment and wheel balancing was a HUGE factor in improving the handling. I’ve traveled dirt roads and gone 90 mph on the interstate. Overall, this suspension is working reasonably well with the big caveat that the progressive springs and moderate damping, esp. rebound damping, combine to create excessive body roll when changing lanes quickly, esp. in an evasive lane change maneuver. The van rolls to the outside and then whipsaws back to the inside.
I don’t think I hate it anymore because it does the straightforward stuff, i.e. 90% of daily driving, reasonably well. I’ve also found that I haven’t bottomed on a few daily bumps that scraped the tire on the fender with the previous setup in its later years.
I’ll share more soon.
Alignment corrected...
Weight with driver...
Weight later that day w/out driver...
GW 1.5” lift springs markings...
Axle to fender lip measurements... Front...
Rear...
Checking the suspension and Peloquin near Mt. Rainier...
_________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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levi Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2005 Posts: 5522 Location: Las Vegas
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Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:15 am Post subject: Re: Livin’ and learnin’ with GW’s lift springs and Fox shocks... |
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Hey Jim
Can I ask how long you've had the 1-1/2" lift springs on there?
I would have been Very happy to have 18" sustained at the front.
I did maintain 18 at the back but the last set I had up front was at 16-1/2" when I ended up pulling them.
Btw, we have almost identical weight numbers, except I have always been a little heavier in the front, like 2500 front/2400 rear.
Glad to hear this is working out for you. _________________ One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way
https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40 |
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shagginwagon83 Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2016 Posts: 3786 Location: VA/TN
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Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:15 am Post subject: Re: Livin’ and learnin’ with GW’s lift springs and Fox shocks... |
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I'm pretty sure my fresh springs/similar setup (except high top) I was around 18.5" -> 19". Once the van gets its wheels back on the ground I'll give a year around feedback. _________________ Brandon
"Jo Ann" - '83.5 Westfalia EJ22e w/Peloquin
Instagram @joannthevan |
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AZ Landshaper Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2009 Posts: 1698 Location: The Old Pueblo
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Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:08 am Post subject: Re: Livin’ and learnin’ with GW’s lift springs and Fox shocks... |
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Im at 18.5" after 8 mos and 3500 miles of driving. No high top and being a weekender. _________________ Support Small Business.
-------------------------------------------------------
85 Weekender w/ EJ22
Previously
64, 71, 72, 73, 76, 81, 84, 85 & 87 Campmobiles and Westfalias
and a 67 bug. |
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markswagen Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2018 Posts: 955 Location: san diego
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Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:07 am Post subject: Re: Livin’ and learnin’ with GW’s lift springs and Fox shocks... |
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I often wonder why people don't measure to the edge of the rim, IMHO you get a more accurate measurement, when I'm leveling out a customer's vanagon.
I find it easier anyway. _________________ markswagen {mobile mechanic} san diego area all early VW's cared for.
619 201 0310 |
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VdubVanner Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2017 Posts: 734 Location: Cowtown AB
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Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:39 am Post subject: Re: I think I hate GW lift springs and GW’s Fox shocks... |
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kamzcab86 wrote: |
My '90 has had GW's zero-lift springs + Bilstein XHD + 15" Conti Vanco4 tires for several years now. No complaints, other than the Bilsteins getting a tad softer as they age. Compared to what was originally on the van, it's been vastly improved. But come shock replacement time, I don't think I'd do Bilstein again. |
Kam: Why the thumbs down on the XHDs? I just ordered some from GoWesty for my 89 Westy. Is it because of that gradual softness alone? |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7402 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Livin’ and learnin’ with GW’s lift springs and Fox shocks... |
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markswagen wrote: |
I often wonder why people don't measure to the edge of the rim, IMHO you get a more accurate measurement, when I'm leveling out a customer's vanagon.
I find it easier anyway. |
As in to the edge of the wheel rim? That probably would be a bit easier for leveling a van with four similar wheels but I believe the axle center to fender lip has become popular because it eliminates all other variables such as wheel size and tire size.
I've been thinking of pinging the center cap with a center punch to clearly mark the axle center. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
|
Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7402 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:07 am Post subject: Re: Livin’ and learnin’ with GW’s lift springs and Fox shocks... |
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levi wrote: |
Hey Jim
Can I ask how long you've had the 1-1/2" lift springs on there?
I would have been Very happy to have 18" sustained at the front.
I did maintain 18 at the back but the last set I had up front was at 16-1/2" when I ended up pulling them.
Btw, we have almost identical weight numbers, except I have always been a little heavier in the front, like 2500 front/2400 rear.
Glad to hear this is working out for you. |
Two weeks and 600 miles so I have no idea what these measurements will look like over time. Even on a multi-week trip the van weighed 5080 lbs so while it's heavy it doesn't exceed GVWR. I'll measure it over time. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
|
Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16474 Location: Brookeville, MD
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Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:39 am Post subject: Re: Livin’ and learnin’ with GW’s lift springs and Fox shocks... |
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jimf909 wrote: |
markswagen wrote: |
I often wonder why people don't measure to the edge of the rim, IMHO you get a more accurate measurement, when I'm leveling out a customer's vanagon.
I find it easier anyway. |
As in to the edge of the wheel rim? That probably would be a bit easier for leveling a van with four similar wheels but I believe the axle center to fender lip has become popular because it eliminates all other variables such as wheel size and tire size.
I've been thinking of pinging the center cap with a center punch to clearly mark the axle center. |
Yep, not possible to compare heights unless each bus has the same rims. Going from the stub axle centerline is consistent across all wheel types. _________________ Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
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kamzcab86 Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008 Posts: 7893 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:30 pm Post subject: Re: I think I hate GW lift springs and GW’s Fox shocks... |
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VdubVanner wrote: |
kamzcab86 wrote: |
My '90 has had GW's zero-lift springs + Bilstein XHD + 15" Conti Vanco4 tires for several years now. No complaints, other than the Bilsteins getting a tad softer as they age. Compared to what was originally on the van, it's been vastly improved. But come shock replacement time, I don't think I'd do Bilstein again. |
Kam: Why the thumbs down on the XHDs? I just ordered some from GoWesty for my 89 Westy. Is it because of that gradual softness alone? |
Not so much a thumbs down, but simply a good shock vs. an excellent shock. And, yes, it's because of the softness, which began only a couple of years after installation. The van doesn't ride like an old squishy Cadillac by any stretch; it's the idea of spending lots of dollars on a product that doesn't last like I would expect. Thus, next go-around, I think I'll try something different, for better or worse. _________________ ~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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Jake de Villiers Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007 Posts: 5911 Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:05 am Post subject: Re: Livin’ and learnin’ with GW’s lift springs and Fox shocks... |
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markswagen wrote: |
I often wonder why people don't measure to the edge of the rim, IMHO you get a more accurate measurement, when I'm leveling out a customer's vanagon.
I find it easier anyway. |
Because you can't compare the spring heights if you've measured to the edge of the rim: 14" rim, 15" rim, 16" rim or 17" rim?
Hub centre is hub centre no matter which. _________________ '84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
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Steve Arndt Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2005 Posts: 1777 Location: Boise, Idaho
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Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:14 am Post subject: Re: I think I hate GW lift springs and GW’s Fox shocks... |
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kamzcab86 wrote: |
VdubVanner wrote: |
kamzcab86 wrote: |
My '90 has had GW's zero-lift springs + Bilstein XHD + 15" Conti Vanco4 tires for several years now. No complaints, other than the Bilsteins getting a tad softer as they age. Compared to what was originally on the van, it's been vastly improved. But come shock replacement time, I don't think I'd do Bilstein again. |
Kam: Why the thumbs down on the XHDs? I just ordered some from GoWesty for my 89 Westy. Is it because of that gradual softness alone? |
Not so much a thumbs down, but simply a good shock vs. an excellent shock. And, yes, it's because of the softness, which began only a couple of years after installation. The van doesn't ride like an old squishy Cadillac by any stretch; it's the idea of spending lots of dollars on a product that doesn't last like I would expect. Thus, next go-around, I think I'll try something different, for better or worse. |
They have a lifetime warranty maybe get them replaced? _________________ Steve
Steve's 87 Syncro project |
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kamzcab86 Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008 Posts: 7893 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:10 am Post subject: Re: I think I hate GW lift springs and GW’s Fox shocks... |
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Steve Arndt wrote: |
They have a lifetime warranty maybe get them replaced? |
They're simply not nearly bad enough to warrant the hassle of a return/replacement. Do not miscontrue my saying they've gone a tad soft for being totally shot. The van still rides and handles nicely (other than a vibration I haven't looked into yet); mentioning that they've lost a small bit of their stiffness was merely relating an honest obversation. _________________ ~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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VdubVanner Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2017 Posts: 734 Location: Cowtown AB
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Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: Livin’ and learnin’ with GW’s lift springs and Fox shocks... |
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Well, I guess I'm stuck with them now. They're enroute to me as I type. They were on sale at GoWesty and I had a LARGE rebate from a recent engine purchase so I thought I'd give them a try after reading all the hype from GW. Any thoughts on what you'd choose now as a replacement for the XHDs? |
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Franagon Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2009 Posts: 227 Location: Savannah, GA
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: Livin’ and learnin’ with GW’s lift springs and Fox shocks... |
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I think this is one of the better posts I have seen on this subject. I am currently running the GW zero lift springs and Bilstein HD shocks, 25mm, T3 (I think) sway bar, standard end links, all front suspension new (bushings, etc.). All about 2-3 years old, 5-6k miles) I want to go with a 1.5 lift and larger tires. (from 215/65-16 Geolanders to 215/70-16 BFG) I have no idea what to do for shocks and springs. My one main question is: Just stay with the GW zero lift rear springs, and shim up from there, or get the 1.5 lift for the rear, let them sag and shim up, if that indeed happens. All my suspension was stock and worn before getting the GW/Bilstein set up, so I feel my ride and handling has certainly been better than it was before. Figured I'd try to get on this post, since like the OP, I've read multiple posts on this subject, and my brain gets hurt and I don't get any closer. Current thought is XHDs with GW 1.5 lift, and deal with that, as long as the front does not sag, I can deal with it. I could still run my HDs I suppose... Thanks all and OP for starting this recent thread. _________________ 84 Westy Wolfsburg Manual - RG6 Bostig |
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levi Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2005 Posts: 5522 Location: Las Vegas
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: Livin’ and learnin’ with GW’s lift springs and Fox shocks... |
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I don't think the 1-1/2" rear are known too much for sagging.
My rear still measures right at 18-1/2, and that's with the heavy weight, the over 100 pounds rear tube bumper etc.
The difference in the rear compared to the original stock was so noticeably better that I still have it, even though the rake makes it look stupid. (front is now about 17 I think) Just not willing to give up that plush rear end. _________________ One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way
https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40 |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7402 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:26 pm Post subject: Re: Livin’ and learnin’ with GW’s lift springs and Fox shocks... |
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It's been a year and I've been meaning to do a 12 month, 10K mile update. The van is at the shop (soon to be getting a warranty trans rebuild, more on that later) so I'll measure ride height when it returns.
Observations
- I still think my favorite suspension was the Rancho shocks/Schewnk 2WD springs. Unfortunately, the Rancho shocks blew w/in 30K miles and the Schewnk springs only held the front of my heavy van at 15 5/8" on the driver's side. Steve Schwenk patiently advised me but it wasn't a good match.
- After a year, I'm liking the GW 1 1/2" springs and Fox shocks. The springs seem to have maintained the ride height (measurements coming soon) the shocks are fine. The setup is still sensitive to abrupt steering inputs at speed and I"ll still ask Fox to increase the damping at rebuild time (they suggest 25K). My initial hate for the setup was mostly fixed with the alignment and wheel balance. That made a huge difference. Also, its really nice to not bottom out as I had with the previous setup on driveways and such (yes, I drive too fast).
I would go from hate to really, really like if the initial turn-in to steering inputs was much firmer. My guess is that would make the ride over small bumps more harsh but I have a modern car for a smooth ride when needed.
That's my novice opinion of this suspension. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
|
Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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