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llilibel03 Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2008 Posts: 767 Location: Redondo Beach California
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:24 am Post subject: CA emissions fail |
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HI. I've got a 85 with a tiico conversion done in 2003. The tiico has 30,000 miles.
I failed smog. 15mph NOx was high.
A couple suggestions i've gotten were to put denatured alcohol into the gas and to run the van on the highway for at least 20 minute to heat up the cat convertor.
My research however sayas the high NOx is due to a lean mixture which causes high temps which lead to NO. This is what was said on one site-
It (alcohol) should / will have minimal impact on NOx. NOx occurs from too lean an air/fuel mixture. When there’s too much oxygen. You can think of it as the alcohol makes the fuel burn hotter… and that’s the opposite of what you want when your NOx number is high.
Also if NOx is caused by high temps wouldn't running the car on the freeway to get the cat convertor hot increase engine temp and thus NO?
All I've done is cleaned my KN air filter and changed the spark plugs. Also plan to momentarily over inflate my tires for what that's worth.
Anything else I can do? _________________ 87 syncro tintop
90 gl tin top
85 westy 2.0 tiico automatic (present)
Last edited by llilibel03 on Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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termuehlen Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2012 Posts: 994 Location: Redwood City
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:43 am Post subject: Re: CA emissions fail |
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Check your exhaust system for any leaks between the engine and the Oxygen Sensor. This was the cause of my high NOx emissions failure a few years ago. _________________ 1988 Westfalia automatic Subaru OBD1
1986 syncro tintop wbx |
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5998 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:45 am Post subject: Re: CA emissions fail |
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Does that engine have EGR (exhaust gas recirculation)?
EGR's purpose is to cut emissions of NOx by recirculating a little exhaust gas into the intake under certain conditions.
If your engine does have such a system, ensure it's functioning correctly and doesn't have any leaks (bad gaskets, rusted out pipes etc) as that would admit excess air into the intake manifold causing a lean mix. _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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llilibel03 Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2008 Posts: 767 Location: Redondo Beach California
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: CA emissions fail |
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No EGR.
Am I correct in assuming that running the car and getting it hot (the cat convertor) is not going to help reduce the NO levels? _________________ 87 syncro tintop
90 gl tin top
85 westy 2.0 tiico automatic (present) |
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5998 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: CA emissions fail |
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Getting it nice and hot would tend to lower HC levels but not necessarily NOx levels. The catalytic converter is mostly there to reduce emission of unburned hydrocarbons, not NOx.
Check for vacuum leaks _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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davevickery Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2005 Posts: 2887 Location: Fort Collins, CO
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: CA emissions fail |
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I think he just needs a new CAT unless his engine has an EGR valve and it is stuck.
Adding alcohol to the gas could help a little with NOX because it burns cooler than gas. If you were close to passing, you could try that, but it won't make a huge difference by itself. Higher octane fuel helps too, but not that much. You probably just need a cat or o2 sensor. If you have a way to test your o2 sensor and see it cycling properly, then I think you will probably just have to replace your cat.
Here is my thread from when I had high NOX. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=663025
Cliff Notes version: I put in a Cali CAT and NOX dropped from 5.8 NO to 0.30. My recent 2 year later retest wasn't as impressive but I still passed easily. |
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llilibel03 Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2008 Posts: 767 Location: Redondo Beach California
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: CA emissions fail |
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davevickery wrote: |
I think he just needs a new CAT unless his engine has an EGR valve and it is stuck.
Adding alcohol to the gas could help a little with NOX because it burns cooler than gas. If you were close to passing, you could try that, but it won't make a huge difference by itself. Higher octane fuel helps too, but not that much. You probably just need a cat or o2 sensor. If you have a way to test your o2 sensor and see it cycling properly, then I think you will probably just have to replace your cat.
Here is my thread from when I had high NOX. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=663025
Cliff Notes version: I put in a Cali CAT and NOX dropped from 5.8 NO to 0.30. My recent 2 year later retest wasn't as impressive but I still passed easily. |
Hi Dave, my reading is that alcohol makes it run leaner and hotter, which is bad for the NO. Same for higher octane gas.
Also on the tiico yahoo group someone said the tiico does not have EGR.
Might have to get a new cat convertor. _________________ 87 syncro tintop
90 gl tin top
85 westy 2.0 tiico automatic (present) |
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davevickery Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2005 Posts: 2887 Location: Fort Collins, CO
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: CA emissions fail |
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llilibel03 wrote: |
Hi Dave, my reading is that alcohol makes it run leaner and hotter, which is bad for the NO. Same for higher octane gas.
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Thanks, I might have gotten that wrong. Seems like it isn't a simple answer though. The energy density of the alcohol is less so all things being equal it would lean it out. But the o2 sensor is compensating and alcohol has a higher octane than gas so it burns slower. But I do see that the internet consensus says that adding alcohol to your gas will lean it out.
I still think higher octane gas would run cooler. The fuel density isn't lower and the octane retards the burning. Just spit balling here. I'm always happy to be corrected and learn something. |
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jberger Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2003 Posts: 2476
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Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: CA emissions fail |
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Check your o2 voltage while running.. it should bounce constantly between 0 and 1 volt. If it’s hovering around a narrow band... that’s your issue. Just went through this with my mk2 8v
J |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22670 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:20 am Post subject: Re: CA emissions fail |
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You want the cat as hot as possible , which helps conversion of CO, HC, and NOx. The combustion temperature at the 15 mph test won’t be impacted by a good hot run cycle before.
Try a hot run to a pretest place and see how it tests out.
Thanks for not killing children with a dirty car. It matters _________________ .ssS! |
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912 outlaw Samba Member
Joined: June 04, 2012 Posts: 30 Location: sonoma
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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: CA emissions fail |
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Put some good chevron 91 octane in her and run her some hills to burn her out and get that cat hot. High octane gas will help with her running a little cooler.full tune wouldon't be bad with oil change too |
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llilibel03 Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2008 Posts: 767 Location: Redondo Beach California
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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: CA emissions fail |
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Failed the retest.
Here's what I did- changed plugs, cleaned KN air filter, overinflated tires, ran the last 1/4 tank of gas with a double dose of sea foam, filled it up, ran it for another hour on the freeway and then took it in. Same result- failed 15mph NOx. A little better but still failed.
I looked at the PO's smog results. One thing I noticed is there was an "iginition. timing" number- 5 BTDC. My tests said "not applicable." Is the PO's number a retarded value? Could that be my winning ticket? Temporarily retarding the timing? Could that throw the other values off?
Since the other numbers are passing I'm kind of doubting the catalytic is the problem.
Also, while googling the issue it was said I could tell if it was running lean by looking at the O2 numbers. Mine was 0.0. PO's was 0.2
Finally, I was told on the tiico yahoo page that there is no EGR. _________________ 87 syncro tintop
90 gl tin top
85 westy 2.0 tiico automatic (present) |
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82westyrabbit Samba Member
Joined: March 02, 2015 Posts: 969 Location: Ma
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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: CA emissions fail |
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Hi. We all keep guessing at why it is not passing the smog test. Of course cking the tune up is always first on the list. When you look at the spark plugs ck to see if they all look the same color. If one is a darker color then you might have a bad injector (which I doubt). If everything looks good there I would find someone that can hook it up to a computer (probably Ross tec) or a V.A.G. tool. At which point you will know that the various sensors work particularly the 02 sensor (probably the problem). If you get through to this point and have not found the problem then it’s probably the cat. Just replacing the cat may take care of the problem by covering up the real issue. Any way that’s how I would approach this problem. John |
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davevickery Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2005 Posts: 2887 Location: Fort Collins, CO
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Posted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: CA emissions fail |
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llilibel03 wrote: |
Failed the retest.
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I think the CAT would fix you up. But if you have a distributor, I would retard the timing a little bit and retest.
My situation was a little different. My engine doesn't have a way to adjust timing as it all electronic. And all my numbers were not that great. If the engine was still in the subaru I would have failed HC and NO and been close to failing on CO. But the CAT cleaned them all up. Yours could just be advanced timing.
HC went from 1.48 to 0.09 gpm 2000+ cars limit 1.2 '89 Vanagon 3.0
CO went from 12.02 to 1.16 gpm 2000+ cars limit 15.0 '89 Vanagon 25.0
NO went from 5.87 to 0.30 gpm 2000+ cars limit 1.5 '89 Vanagon 5.0
CO2 was 536 |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22670 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:42 am Post subject: Re: CA emissions fail |
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Post up the test report, let’s look at all the data.
Cover up name and address for pricacy of course, _________________ .ssS! |
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ckissick Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2006 Posts: 498 Location: Bay Area
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Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:31 am Post subject: Re: CA emissions fail |
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Every time I've failed I've replaced the cat and passed. Simple. _________________ Charlie
1950 Beetle
1983 Westfalia
1989 syncro Tristar
1966 Porsche 912
1989 Beck Spyder
2007 GTI Fahrenheit |
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llilibel03 Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2008 Posts: 767 Location: Redondo Beach California
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Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: CA emissions fail |
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Passed.
I went to my old Audi guy. He retarded the timing 5 degrees and also put in different spark plugs that he said were "cooler" - Bosch W5DC.
He also told me he knows folks who put in the expensive California cat converter for the test and then swap it out for the 49 states one and only use the expensive one for the test. He said is some new Audis with two cats the cost of the CA ones can be $800.
He also mentioned that on the tiico there were no timing marks anywhere so he just made his own mark o the distributor. _________________ 87 syncro tintop
90 gl tin top
85 westy 2.0 tiico automatic (present) |
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tjet Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014 Posts: 3533 Location: CA & NM
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Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: CA emissions fail |
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llilibel03 wrote: |
Passed.
I went to my old Audi guy. He retarded the timing 5 degrees and also put in different spark plugs that he said were "cooler" - Bosch W5DC.
He also told me he knows folks who put in the expensive California cat converter for the test and then swap it out for the 49 states one and only use the expensive one for the test. He said is some new Audis with two cats the cost of the CA ones can be $800.
He also mentioned that on the tiico there were no timing marks anywhere so he just made his own mark o the distributor. |
Nice, Good info for the next guy. |
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82westyrabbit Samba Member
Joined: March 02, 2015 Posts: 969 Location: Ma
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Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: CA emissions fail |
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I glad you got through the smog test. The timing marks are on the crank pully on the timing belt end of the engine. To set the timing properly needs to be connected to a computer/scan tool. Now that you have passed smog test you probably want him to set the timing back where it was and the old heat range plugs in back in. It probably would be a good idea to scan the system every so often anyway. Happy driving. John |
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llilibel03 Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2008 Posts: 767 Location: Redondo Beach California
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Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: CA emissions fail |
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82westyrabbit wrote: |
I glad you got through the smog test. The timing marks are on the crank pully on the timing belt end of the engine. To set the timing properly needs to be connected to a computer/scan tool. Now that you have passed smog test you probably want him to set the timing back where it was and the old heat range plugs in back in. It probably would be a good idea to scan the system every so often anyway. Happy driving. John |
I didn't notice much difference in driveability, maybe a little rougher at idle but that's it. I was expecting a noticeable power loss, but couldn't notice any. I'm waiting to see if the timing change has an effect on my MPG before I set it back. Are there other reasons I should set the timing back to it's original setting? _________________ 87 syncro tintop
90 gl tin top
85 westy 2.0 tiico automatic (present) |
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