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AndyBees Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2008 Posts: 2331 Location: Southeast Kentucky
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] |
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Jeffery Lee, that's my jack in the Harbor Freight link.... only difference, mine come from Northern Tool... and seems I paid $200.00 about 12 years ago! _________________ '84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] |
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I got an actual transmission jack a few years ago after the first time I wrestled an automatic trans out of and into a Mk4 Jetta. I got the Harbor Freight 'cheap' one and it is similar in cost to the previously linked ATV jack. https://www.harborfreight.com/automotive-motorcycl...60234.html The distinct advantage to a transmission jack is that it has the two handles that adjust the angle of the saddle on the jack. After having R+R'd several transmission with it I'm a big fan. Overall the trans jack is a more flexible tool to use than the ATV jack (which I also have). Neither a trans jack nor ATV jack is specifically necessary for a Vanagon trans install which is a comparatively easy trans install. I've done several of them with just a $20 FLAPS trolly jack although the cheaper methods tend to involve more risk/stress/effort in the doing. Regardless of what type of jack you use, a large part of the challenge is that the engine must be angled down in order for the nose of the trans to clear the frame, the trans has to be inline with the engine, AND the trans needs to be moved toward the engine along that same centerline of crankshaft and transmission input shaft. When you consider what you want to use to do the lifting, bear in mind that it will need to move toward the back of the van while at the same time lifting the trans in order to maintain that proper angle. |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] |
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?Waldo? wrote: |
I got an actual transmission jack a few years ago after the first time I wrestled an automatic trans out of and into a Mk4 Jetta. I got the Harbor Freight 'cheap' one and it is similar in cost to the previously linked ATV jack. https://www.harborfreight.com/automotive-motorcycl...60234.html The distinct advantage to a transmission jack is that it has the two handles that adjust the angle of the saddle on the jack. After having R+R'd several transmission with it I'm a big fan. Overall the trans jack is a more flexible tool to use than the ATV jack (which I also have). Neither a trans jack nor ATV jack is specifically necessary for a Vanagon trans install which is a comparatively easy trans install. I've done several of them with just a $20 FLAPS trolly jack although the cheaper methods tend to involve more risk/stress/effort in the doing. Regardless of what type of jack you use, a large part of the challenge is that the engine must be angled down in order for the nose of the trans to clear the frame, the trans has to be inline with the engine, AND the trans needs to be moved toward the engine along that same centerline of crankshaft and transmission input shaft. When you consider what you want to use to do the lifting, bear in mind that it will need to move toward the back of the van while at the same time lifting the trans in order to maintain that proper angle. |
I'm starting to get the idea for how the re-install needs to happen.
I have an idea for how I might build an installation jig really cheaply... here is a terrible little drawing - probably not recognizable...
1) Basically start with a base make of plywood on small wheels
2) Onto the base bolt 2 cheap scissor jacks
3) Onto the top of the jacks bolt or weld metal extensions to widen the lifting area to about 10".
4) Bolt (loosely) onto these extensions a platform [another piece of plywood large enough for the tranny]
5) Place the tranny on the platform, then wheel the jig under the van and into position... jack up both jacks to achieve the right height and angle... slide the tranny forward and home... adjust crankshaft via both flanges - and adjust angle until it slides home
Is this crazy?
_________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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Jake de Villiers Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007 Posts: 5911 Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:49 am Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] |
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Jeffrey Lee wrote: |
Or just look for a nice used motorcycle/ATV jack on Craigslist, etc.; my wife found my gently used unit at a yard sale for $75. |
Way to go, Mrs. Camp Westy!!! _________________ '84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:47 am Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] |
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Here are some pics and some more questions...
I heard that when re-installing the clutch pressure plate it is necessary to have a special alignment tool to keep the clutch aligned... is it possible to use this spare piece to make such a tool? This is from the DK I think, and my pigs are all DMs.
Here are the 2 dead pigs I want to test out.
In these 2 pics is it possible to locate and checkout the "oil slinger"?
Here is a 3rd dead pig which has a known bad 1st gear, and missing bellhousing.
I also have a whole box full of DK innards (minus RP) [sorry that box is BELOW the box in this pic]
Here is my whole stash including a JX block I want to rebuild next Winter
_________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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AndyBees Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2008 Posts: 2331 Location: Southeast Kentucky
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:02 am Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] |
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The splines may be the same, but the end will not fit the pilot bearing in the end of the Crankshaft. To make the alignment properly, the guide pilot must fit into the pilot bearing...
Edit: Nope ... after taking a second look, splines are not the same. Also, that reverse shaft is basically identical in both the diesel and DK trannies... _________________ '84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:08 am Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] |
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Cheap DIY tranny jack! Wow, this looks like the best and cheapest I've seen.
I would make it much lower though.... just very small wheels attached to a thick slab of plywood and bolt the Z-jack onto that. But wow, this one holds the tranny solidly and is very moveable and flexible also > looks ideal.
Link
_________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17154 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:11 am Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] |
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Take your worst looking transaxle and pull the bellhousing off. It will give you the chance to look at the condition of the ring and pinion. At the same time, you can remove the input shaft and use it as a clutch alignment tool going forward. 30 mins work. _________________ ☮️ |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:14 am Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] |
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AndyBees wrote: |
The splines may be the same, but the end will not fit the pilot bearing in the end of the Crankshaft. To make the alignment properly, the guide pilot must fit into the pilot bearing...
Edit: Nope ... after taking a second look, splines are not the same. Also, that reverse shaft is basically identical in both the diesel and DK trannies... |
So the piece I showed is not an INPUT SHAFT?
...so what I need as an alignment tool is an input shaft? Maybe from one of my dead pigs I am not currently using I could temporarily remove an input shaft for this alignment purpose?? _________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12115 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] |
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epowell wrote: |
Cheap DIY tranny jack! Wow, this looks like the best and cheapest I've seen.
I would make it much lower though.... just very small wheels attached to a thick slab of plywood and bolt the Z-jack onto that. But wow, this one holds the tranny solidly and is very moveable and flexible also > looks ideal.
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Good luck with that approach. The trans in the vid is probably a whole lot lighter since it doesn't have a differential section _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:22 am Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] |
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MarkWard wrote: |
Take your worst looking transaxle and pull the bellhousing off. It will give you the chance to look at the condition of the ring and pinion. At the same time, you can remove the input shaft and use it as a clutch alignment tool going forward. 30 mins work. |
Yes.... first I want to make sure I have a source for the required gaskets (for the bellhousing), and when I can get plenty of those cheaply, I will remove both bellhousings and take detailed pics.
Cool, so yes I can use one of the INPUT SHAFTS as an alignment tool Good...
Funny thing is that my worst tranny case is the well working DM currently on my van. The other 2 supposedly working pigs have reasonably good cases... and the best case is the broken DM without bellhousing. So it would make the most sense to use the corroded case of my currently working DM as the re-build jig.... but since that pig is KNOWN to be working I am inclined to keep that one intact as a spare. >>>anyhow I will know more about the workability of the these other 2 pigs once I get them swapped in and tested [or just opened and RP observed].
I guess once I swap in a pig I can't really declare it "well working" until I've given it a couple hundred miles or so? _________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] |
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Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
epowell wrote: |
Cheap DIY tranny jack! Wow, this looks like the best and cheapest I've seen.
I would make it much lower though.... just very small wheels attached to a thick slab of plywood and bolt the Z-jack onto that. But wow, this one holds the tranny solidly and is very moveable and flexible also > looks ideal.
Link
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Good luck with that approach. The trans in the vid is probably a whole lot lighter since it doesn't have a differential section |
I gotta watch my budget... I am attempting to overcome my deficit spending down of my savings.... this jack would be just over $100 https://www.motonakup.cz/nuzkovy-zvedak-na-motorku...fQQAvD_BwE
But you are right that the set up in the video looks like a very light tranny.... _________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:30 am Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] |
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I've just eyeballed the alignment of several clutch discs and had no issues. It's a little easier to use the alignment tool or input shaft but not strictly necessary. A good eye gets it just as well aligned as the tool.
That single scissor jack on a little furniture dolly like that would likely not stand up to a vanagon trans. |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:40 am Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] |
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?Waldo? wrote: |
I've just eyeballed the alignment of several clutch discs and had no issues. It's a little easier to use the alignment tool or input shaft but not strictly necessary. A good eye gets it just as well aligned as the tool. |
Especially when you know exactly what you are looking at! I might not have that certainty the first time round.
?Waldo? wrote: |
That single scissor jack on a little furniture dolly like that would likely not stand up to a vanagon trans. |
Actually yeah that GB is really tiny...
maybe this idea is better...?
_________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:49 am Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] |
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this probably is the most simple and easy that I've seen...
Link
_________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17154 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] |
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The bellhousing is the one case member you can safely install using sealer in place of a gasket. In fact, it will probably seal better with sealer than a gasket. _________________ ☮️ |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] |
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MarkWard wrote: |
The bellhousing is the one case member you can safely install using sealer in place of a gasket. In fact, it will probably seal better with sealer than a gasket. |
Aha! ...so in that case I will open them up tomorrow.
Thanks _________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17154 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] |
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Don't get carried away with the sealer. Just a film not a gob. Machined surfaces could get away with no sealer. Not sure if you can get it there, but Loctite makes a product called Gasket Eliminator. It's anaerobic and works well for sealing machined surfaces. _________________ ☮️ |
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epowell Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2015 Posts: 4733 Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] |
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MarkWard wrote: |
Don't get carried away with the sealer. Just a film not a gob. Machined surfaces could get away with no sealer. |
OK
I am curious about this... these are the 2 swap candidates, and I just noticed that on the throwout bearing guide tubes, one of them is missing a piece that attaches to that sort of 'lever arm'. I guess I need to remove this and attach it to whatever box I am currently swapping in? ...just swap it and grease it up?
...also, what does the "throw-out bearing" do? Is this a standard critical replacement item? _________________ www.edwardpowell.com |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17154 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] |
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That sleeve is what the release bearing or throw out bearing rides on. The release bearing is a wear item and usually gets replaced with the pressure plate. It is moved against the pressure plate fingers to release the clutch disc so the input shaft slows for a smooth shift. Spin the center with your finger it should feel smooth and quiet, not notchy and noisy. You will need to transfer that tube and replace the input shaft seal under it. _________________ ☮️ |
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