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Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL]
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AndyBees
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

Jeffery Lee, that's my jack in the Harbor Freight link.... only difference, mine come from Northern Tool... and seems I paid $200.00 about 12 years ago!
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

I got an actual transmission jack a few years ago after the first time I wrestled an automatic trans out of and into a Mk4 Jetta. I got the Harbor Freight 'cheap' one and it is similar in cost to the previously linked ATV jack. https://www.harborfreight.com/automotive-motorcycl...60234.html The distinct advantage to a transmission jack is that it has the two handles that adjust the angle of the saddle on the jack. After having R+R'd several transmission with it I'm a big fan. Overall the trans jack is a more flexible tool to use than the ATV jack (which I also have). Neither a trans jack nor ATV jack is specifically necessary for a Vanagon trans install which is a comparatively easy trans install. I've done several of them with just a $20 FLAPS trolly jack although the cheaper methods tend to involve more risk/stress/effort in the doing. Regardless of what type of jack you use, a large part of the challenge is that the engine must be angled down in order for the nose of the trans to clear the frame, the trans has to be inline with the engine, AND the trans needs to be moved toward the engine along that same centerline of crankshaft and transmission input shaft. When you consider what you want to use to do the lifting, bear in mind that it will need to move toward the back of the van while at the same time lifting the trans in order to maintain that proper angle.
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epowell
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

?Waldo? wrote:
I got an actual transmission jack a few years ago after the first time I wrestled an automatic trans out of and into a Mk4 Jetta. I got the Harbor Freight 'cheap' one and it is similar in cost to the previously linked ATV jack. https://www.harborfreight.com/automotive-motorcycl...60234.html The distinct advantage to a transmission jack is that it has the two handles that adjust the angle of the saddle on the jack. After having R+R'd several transmission with it I'm a big fan. Overall the trans jack is a more flexible tool to use than the ATV jack (which I also have). Neither a trans jack nor ATV jack is specifically necessary for a Vanagon trans install which is a comparatively easy trans install. I've done several of them with just a $20 FLAPS trolly jack although the cheaper methods tend to involve more risk/stress/effort in the doing. Regardless of what type of jack you use, a large part of the challenge is that the engine must be angled down in order for the nose of the trans to clear the frame, the trans has to be inline with the engine, AND the trans needs to be moved toward the engine along that same centerline of crankshaft and transmission input shaft. When you consider what you want to use to do the lifting, bear in mind that it will need to move toward the back of the van while at the same time lifting the trans in order to maintain that proper angle.


I'm starting to get the idea for how the re-install needs to happen.
I have an idea for how I might build an installation jig really cheaply... here is a terrible little drawing - probably not recognizable...
1) Basically start with a base make of plywood on small wheels
2) Onto the base bolt 2 cheap scissor jacks
3) Onto the top of the jacks bolt or weld metal extensions to widen the lifting area to about 10".
4) Bolt (loosely) onto these extensions a platform [another piece of plywood large enough for the tranny]
5) Place the tranny on the platform, then wheel the jig under the van and into position... jack up both jacks to achieve the right height and angle... slide the tranny forward and home... adjust crankshaft via both flanges - and adjust angle until it slides home

Is this crazy?
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Jake de Villiers
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:49 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

Jeffrey Lee wrote:


Or just look for a nice used motorcycle/ATV jack on Craigslist, etc.; my wife found my gently used unit at a yard sale for $75.

Way to go, Mrs. Camp Westy!!! Shocked Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:47 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

Here are some pics and some more questions...

I heard that when re-installing the clutch pressure plate it is necessary to have a special alignment tool to keep the clutch aligned... is it possible to use this spare piece to make such a tool? This is from the DK I think, and my pigs are all DMs.
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Here are the 2 dead pigs I want to test out.
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In these 2 pics is it possible to locate and checkout the "oil slinger"?
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Here is a 3rd dead pig which has a known bad 1st gear, and missing bellhousing.
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I also have a whole box full of DK innards (minus RP) [sorry that box is BELOW the box in this pic]
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Here is my whole stash including a JX block I want to rebuild next Winter
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:02 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

The splines may be the same, but the end will not fit the pilot bearing in the end of the Crankshaft. To make the alignment properly, the guide pilot must fit into the pilot bearing...

Edit: Nope ... after taking a second look, splines are not the same. Also, that reverse shaft is basically identical in both the diesel and DK trannies...
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:08 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

Cheap DIY tranny jack! Wow, this looks like the best and cheapest I've seen.
I would make it much lower though.... just very small wheels attached to a thick slab of plywood and bolt the Z-jack onto that. But wow, this one holds the tranny solidly and is very moveable and flexible also > looks ideal.

Link

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:11 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

Take your worst looking transaxle and pull the bellhousing off. It will give you the chance to look at the condition of the ring and pinion. At the same time, you can remove the input shaft and use it as a clutch alignment tool going forward. 30 mins work.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:14 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

AndyBees wrote:
The splines may be the same, but the end will not fit the pilot bearing in the end of the Crankshaft. To make the alignment properly, the guide pilot must fit into the pilot bearing...

Edit: Nope ... after taking a second look, splines are not the same. Also, that reverse shaft is basically identical in both the diesel and DK trannies...


So the piece I showed is not an INPUT SHAFT?
...so what I need as an alignment tool is an input shaft? Maybe from one of my dead pigs I am not currently using I could temporarily remove an input shaft for this alignment purpose??
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:21 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

epowell wrote:
Cheap DIY tranny jack! Wow, this looks like the best and cheapest I've seen.
I would make it much lower though.... just very small wheels attached to a thick slab of plywood and bolt the Z-jack onto that. But wow, this one holds the tranny solidly and is very moveable and flexible also > looks ideal.

Link


Good luck with that approach. The trans in the vid is probably a whole lot lighter since it doesn't have a differential section
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:22 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
Take your worst looking transaxle and pull the bellhousing off. It will give you the chance to look at the condition of the ring and pinion. At the same time, you can remove the input shaft and use it as a clutch alignment tool going forward. 30 mins work.


Yes.... first I want to make sure I have a source for the required gaskets (for the bellhousing), and when I can get plenty of those cheaply, I will remove both bellhousings and take detailed pics.

Cool, so yes I can use one of the INPUT SHAFTS as an alignment tool Smile Good...

Funny thing is that my worst tranny case is the well working DM currently on my van. The other 2 supposedly working pigs have reasonably good cases... and the best case is the broken DM without bellhousing. So it would make the most sense to use the corroded case of my currently working DM as the re-build jig.... but since that pig is KNOWN to be working I am inclined to keep that one intact as a spare. >>>anyhow I will know more about the workability of the these other 2 pigs once I get them swapped in and tested [or just opened and RP observed].

I guess once I swap in a pig I can't really declare it "well working" until I've given it a couple hundred miles or so?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
epowell wrote:
Cheap DIY tranny jack! Wow, this looks like the best and cheapest I've seen.
I would make it much lower though.... just very small wheels attached to a thick slab of plywood and bolt the Z-jack onto that. But wow, this one holds the tranny solidly and is very moveable and flexible also > looks ideal.

Link


Good luck with that approach. The trans in the vid is probably a whole lot lighter since it doesn't have a differential section


I gotta watch my budget... I am attempting to overcome my deficit spending down of my savings.... this jack would be just over $100 https://www.motonakup.cz/nuzkovy-zvedak-na-motorku...fQQAvD_BwE

But you are right that the set up in the video looks like a very light tranny....
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:30 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

I've just eyeballed the alignment of several clutch discs and had no issues. It's a little easier to use the alignment tool or input shaft but not strictly necessary. A good eye gets it just as well aligned as the tool.

That single scissor jack on a little furniture dolly like that would likely not stand up to a vanagon trans.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:40 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

?Waldo? wrote:
I've just eyeballed the alignment of several clutch discs and had no issues. It's a little easier to use the alignment tool or input shaft but not strictly necessary. A good eye gets it just as well aligned as the tool.

Especially when you know exactly what you are looking at! I might not have that certainty the first time round.


?Waldo? wrote:

That single scissor jack on a little furniture dolly like that would likely not stand up to a vanagon trans.


Actually yeah that GB is really tiny...
maybe this idea is better...?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:49 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

this probably is the most simple and easy that I've seen...

Link

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

The bellhousing is the one case member you can safely install using sealer in place of a gasket. In fact, it will probably seal better with sealer than a gasket.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
The bellhousing is the one case member you can safely install using sealer in place of a gasket. In fact, it will probably seal better with sealer than a gasket.


Aha! ...so in that case I will open them up tomorrow.
Thanks
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

Don't get carried away with the sealer. Just a film not a gob. Machined surfaces could get away with no sealer. Not sure if you can get it there, but Loctite makes a product called Gasket Eliminator. It's anaerobic and works well for sealing machined surfaces.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
Don't get carried away with the sealer. Just a film not a gob. Machined surfaces could get away with no sealer.

OK Smile


I am curious about this... these are the 2 swap candidates, and I just noticed that on the throwout bearing guide tubes, one of them is missing a piece that attaches to that sort of 'lever arm'. I guess I need to remove this and attach it to whatever box I am currently swapping in? ...just swap it and grease it up?

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...also, what does the "throw-out bearing" do? Is this a standard critical replacement item?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

That sleeve is what the release bearing or throw out bearing rides on. The release bearing is a wear item and usually gets replaced with the pressure plate. It is moved against the pressure plate fingers to release the clutch disc so the input shaft slows for a smooth shift. Spin the center with your finger it should feel smooth and quiet, not notchy and noisy. You will need to transfer that tube and replace the input shaft seal under it.
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