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Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL]
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epowell
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:48 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

?Waldo? wrote:
When loosening the axle nuts I use a ~5' long piece of heavy pipe over my 3/4" drive breaker bar. I orient the bar so that I am lifting the bar, not pushing down. Pushing down and jumping on it is fairly uncontrolled and has a high likelihood of resulting in pain. When lifting up, the push of my legs can exert more force than my weight and can do so in a totally controlled manner. If the socket happened to slip off (which has actually never happened to me with the axle nuts) then the worst result would be a rounded nut. If it slips off when jumping on it, I can imagine a lot worse (e.g. busted shin, knocked out teeth, etc..). Just something to consider for next time.


Thanks for the tip!
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:22 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

But with lifting the bar it will also lift the wheel from the ground and so it will spin.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:52 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

T3messie wrote:
But with lifting the bar it will also lift the wheel from the ground and so it will spin.

But with the vehicle fully on the ground one would have to lift the entire weight of the van in order to get the wheel to spin, no?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:16 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

Those of us with prior back surgery like to stand on the bar despite the risks....... Cool
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:19 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

T3messie wrote:
But with lifting the bar it will also lift the wheel from the ground and so it will spin.


...apply the e-brake.
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epowell
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:50 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

ROUND #2

I just managed to remove the first spare (dirty one) tranny, and it all went very smoothly. I didn't jack the rear up so high, and I didn't jack the front up at all...

Now I just realized that in order to swap over the bellhousing and the input shaft from the first spare to the next spare, I will need to drain out all of the gear oil..... >>>>> now I am wondering what I should do with this very fresh oil?? Should I put this oil into the next spare tranny I am about to swap in [or is it a bad idea to swap oil (completely new oil) from one box to another?

Or maybe I should put this drained oil into a separate clean container and keep it next to this tranny (that it came out of), and put it back in once I will use it again?

Any ideas?

- - -

Next question is if I should bother to change the crank oil seal? Of course I will look at that tomorrow and we will see if it is leaking or not... problem is that I can't buy the oil seal separately, I must buy it with the carrier plate > it's not super expensive, but also not cheap >>> I think that 2 years from now I won't be using this engine anymore and likely I will never use it again once it is out. >>> so not sure if I should bother with this oil seal. I am not sure if these things can suddenly fail, and how long they generally last?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

RE-PACKING REAR WHEEL BEARINGS:

I know after asking this someone is going to tell me to go and read the manual, so after asking this I will now go and read the manual Laughing

...but I wonder if anyone can give me a few hints regarding what I am up against with my rear wheel bearings... I did the wiggle test on both wheels, and the pass. side I think is slightly questionable. It is more loose than the dr. side wheel, and it doesn't turn as smoothly. I am not sure if this means I should just replace that bearing, or if you replace one side you MUST replace the other side... and then there is the big question of whether or not a slightly worn out ORIGINAL bearing might last even longer than a new AFTERMARKET one? Anyway, I will buy a set of new FAG rear bearings regardless....... but now looking into installing those bearings it does not really look like something I would want to do by the side of the road - especially since I do own a press (which I almost never use). So maybe I should install some new bearings and keep my originals as spares [but I also heard that once you hammer out bearings they are then toast?].

The other thing is, supposing I decide just to keep those original bearings in there - I guess all I will need to do is re-pack some grease... to do that would I need to remove the entire hub? ...I guess removing the hub it would be possible to wash out and flush out all the old grease (on the bench), then pack in there new grease...? Or can this be done on the van without removing the hub?

Anyhow, all of the tutorial material I have been able to find only deals with replacing the bearings - not just packing in there new grease....

...OK, now off to read the Bentley Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=647654&highlight=rear+wheel+bearings
Never did it.

My problem with new bearings (SKF) is, that they wiggle after short time, so the technical inspector donīt let them pass the exam. They roll quiet and smooth but have too much (maybe not too much, but more than the originals) play inside. Maybe you have better luck, change them, if you feel questionable about them.

Of course save the fresh transmission oil in whatever way. Maybe just leave it in the tranny, you can change the bellhousing without draining the oil by lifting the rear part of the box, so the oil stays in the front part. Maybe you have to block the vent.

Just ignore the crank seal, if it is dry.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:48 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

T3messie wrote:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=647654&highlight=rear+wheel+bearings
Never did it.

My problem with new bearings (SKF) is, that they wiggle after short time, so the technical inspector donīt let them pass the exam. They roll quiet and smooth but have too much (maybe not too much, but more than the originals) play inside. Maybe you have better luck, change them, if you feel questionable about them.

Of course save the fresh transmission oil in whatever way. Maybe just leave it in the tranny, you can change the bellhousing without draining the oil by lifting the rear part of the box, so the oil stays in the front part. Maybe you have to block the vent.

Just ignore the crank seal, if it is dry.


Thanks for this feedback!

My main question regarding rear wheel bearings is, "Is it safe to remove the OEM bearings for inspection and cleaning" > if yes I think I will do this - but I am afraid I might mess them up possibly??
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Last edited by epowell on Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:54 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
NO NO NO. As it says in the Bentley, it should be slightly loose. RTFM!!!!!

Mark



epowell wrote:

I guess that during installation of the input shaft you don't need to worry too much about how 'tight' you screw the shaft on..... I guess just as tight as possible by hand and that's it.


I've been studying the Bentley and not able to find what they say about the input shaft installation.... so I will assume that your tighten it until you hit bottom, then back off a microtad - then push the collar down and add the circlip?
EDIT: Looking again at the Bentley for SPECS on this....
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The Bentley is tricky to locate specific things and to understand it, and sometimes info is pretty vague >>> on the other hand WHAT AN INCREDIBLY RESOURCE once you get used to it!


- - -

I did find in the Bentley 'instructions' regarding how to R/R the MAIN SHAFT OIL SEAL. It seems you just need to unbolt that metal guide tube, then pry the oil seal which is underneath that... then tap in a fresh one. It adds the note: "FILL SPACE BETWEEN LIPS WITH GREASE" ...so I am not sure which "lips" they are referring to.
EDIT: OK this simply means put some grease on the inner wall of the seal once installed so the MAIN SHAFT won't eat it when spinning.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:40 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

epowell wrote:


Or maybe I should put this drained oil into a separate clean container and keep it next to this tranny (that it came out of), and put it back in once I will use it again?


If it is expensive to get trans oil I would do this. After it sits a while it should be good to use in any other trans since it was barely used and any stuff should have settled to the bottom. Just do not pour out the bottom few ounces when you reuse it.
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

The West Coast Westy
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:45 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

Removed FLYWHEEL again...

First off, I think I discovered a FAILING COOLANT HOSE... it seems to be leaking slightly here, and perhaps the hose is degenerating here. . .
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

[img]https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1900270.jpg[/img

Here is the OIL SEAL after one week of pretty hard driving... seems bone dry. I personally do not know how long these seals last... I think within between 1 to 3 years I will have another rebuilt JX installed in this van and likely after that never again use this engine (it's a pity because I love it > but these days emissions standards are so strict in EUROPE that this engine will likely not be used again] >>> so 'will this seal last another 3 years?' >>> or should I just spend the $20 and 2 hours and replace it for security?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here are pics of the FLYWHEEL etc etc [all seems same as before the test drive]
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:52 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

dobryan wrote:
epowell wrote:


Or maybe I should put this drained oil into a separate clean container and keep it next to this tranny (that it came out of), and put it back in once I will use it again?


If it is expensive to get trans oil I would do this. After it sits a while it should be good to use in any other trans since it was barely used and any stuff should have settled to the bottom. Just do not pour out the bottom few ounces when you reuse it.


Thanks Dave... the other consideration is that I think that keeping a tranny in storage for a long time it is best if it is full of oil, and the thing can be rolled over once in a while to make sure oil gets again on all the innards.

Therefore what I am now thinking to do is to remove the bellhousing and input shafts, and keep the oil inside >>> if the next swap seems like a KEEPER, I will just throw on a shaft and bellhousing in order to keep the oil in there, and I can store this first piggy that way...

....or..... doing it as you are suggesting might be a wise way to get rid of some of the dirty crap in the oil! [ie., drain it, let it side for 2 months, then pour it back in MINUS the crap at the bottom --- on second thought, this seems like the best way > especially considering how dirty this box is/was]
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:14 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

Regarding the oil seal. If it ain't broke don't fix it. I'd leave it alone.
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Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:17 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

dobryan wrote:
Regarding the oil seal. If it ain't broke don't fix it. I'd leave it alone.


True... but when something is so deep inside the van - sometimes good to replace.... but again I don't know how long these things should last.

This is also the consideration for the throw-out bearing... the original seems excellent - but I will put a new one on anyway.

Same for the mainshaft oil seal.... I will replace that now also - even though it's dry.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

FIGHTING WITH THE INPUT SHAFT Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad

...on the 'clean' spare DM (which has never been opened) the input shaft rotated off like butter!

Now trying to do the exact same trick with the 'dirty' spare DM (which was opened by someone - 'bellhousing' that is) > the INPUT SHAFT will NOT spin off. I got so frustrated that I started to put the other input shaft back on the 'clean' spare, and it went back on no problem... then I went to take it off and as I did that I compared the height I had raised the rev.gear collar, and it was exactly the same amount, therefore the fact that I can't spin off the shaft is NOT because I am not lifting the collar up enough - absolutely not this problem.

My guess is that when someone opened this box, they installed a new input shaft (also explaining why it's input shaft looks so good and new) BUT THE INSTALLER PROBABLY DIDN'T KNOW TO NOT TIGHTEN THE SHAFT. So my guess is that the guy tightened it, and now it is on there too tight and I can't spin it off.

Is there any trick or cure for this known to man? (Sambaman Very Happy )
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

Did you try rotating to one of the other openings? Sometimes that helps. The area where the holes are isn't precisely made.

But not all T3 trannys have those openings and so it is absolutely impossible to remove the shaft without extra steps on those. The same extra steps will work on yours and it isn't hard to do.

One other thing you could consider is to mark exactly where the sleeve touches the edges of the hole. Then push the sleeve back where it lives and carefully grind away a little metal on the edges of the hole so the sleeve can come just a whisker farther out into the spot you opened up.

If you do manage to get it apart, slightly grind the relevant edge of the sleeve to make it easier to put back and to deal with it in the future.

Mark
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
Did you try rotating to one of the other openings? Sometimes that helps. The area where the holes are isn't precisely made.

But not all T3 trannys have those openings and so it is absolutely impossible to remove the shaft without extra steps on those. The same extra steps will work on yours and it isn't hard to do.

One other thing you could consider is to mark exactly where the sleeve touches the edges of the hole. Then push the sleeve back where it lives and carefully grind away a little metal on the edges of the hole so the sleeve can come just a whisker farther out into the spot you opened up.

If you do manage to get it apart, slightly grind the relevant edge of the sleeve to make it easier to put back and to deal with it in the future.

Mark


Thanks Mark, I was considering grinding like this but didn't dare do it... but it makes sense to try it, HOWEVER I really don't think that that is the problem - I think I am able to pull the collar high enough as it is > I think the problem is that the last person to install it did not leave it loose, so now it got tight thru driving. . . . .

But I will try this grinding also just to make sure that I do have it high enough. But I think these 2 trannies are identical...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

No 2 trannys are identical in that spot. I've dealt with dozens of them.

Once the splined sleeve is slid into it's place the shaft can't turn on the threads anymore so not really able to get tighter by itself.

If you have a small mirror like a dental mirror you can use it and a light to see the joint where the 2 shafts touch. If you can't see that exposed joint then the sleeve is probably still bridging it and it can't be unscrewed.

If you have a clutch disc lying around you can slip it into place on the shaft and use it to help turn the shaft. You can also put the tranny into gear and get someone to hold the 2 side flanges still with their hands while you try to unscrew the shaft. Sometimes you think it will never come free and then it suddenly does. You might need to use some force.

Mark
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
No 2 trannys are identical in that spot. I've dealt with dozens of them.

Once the splined sleeve is slid into it's place the shaft can't turn on the threads anymore so not really able to get tighter by itself.

If you have a small mirror like a dental mirror you can use it and a light to see the joint where the 2 shafts touch. If you can't see that exposed joint then the sleeve is probably still bridging it and it can't be unscrewed.

If you have a clutch disc lying around you can slip it into place on the shaft and use it to help turn the shaft. You can also put the tranny into gear and get someone to hold the 2 side flanges still with their hands while you try to unscrew the shaft. Sometimes you think it will never come free and then it suddenly does. You might need to use some force.

Mark


Thanks Mark... hmmm, after this explanation I start to suspect that perhaps the collar is NOT high enough because yes, the collar locks the splines and therefore should not at all tighten the shaft thru driving...

I will definitely find a mirror and somehow get a visual to confirm I am past the joint, and if not, then I'll grind a tiny bit off that hole.
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